Ledger Wallet Confidence? | Bitcointalksearch.org

so98nn

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Quote from: mk4 on April 23, 2022, 09:30:56 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 23, 2022, 07:28:29 AM

Another is Ledger Live which you might prefer as it supports many coins but does not support customers' privacy

Ledger Live Liars Data Collection

Just a heads up for OP here that you don't necessarily need to use the Ledger Live software. You can connect your Ledger device to Electrum/MetaMask/Phantom and most non-mobile wallet software.

Actually you can connect with the non-mobile wallet software using the Ledger Live itself.

In the new firmware that I have installed and reviewed, you get the option to fetch whole data onto your phone by scanning the QR code. This is just an additional step you need to follow by clicking synch with phone.

It will show up the QR code and this has to be scanned with Live Mobile software. You are good to go and synch up the Hardware wallet with your phone too!

Pmalek

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Quote from: Welsh on April 28, 2022, 06:33:18 PM

e.g open source software, as well as open source hardware. Obviously, that's really hard to come by in this day, and age.

More like impossible as things stand right now. Unless some company starts manufacturing each hardware component themselves and decides to go a different route. Most of the times though, you will end up using chips produced by someone else and you will be asked to sign NDAs that restricts you from discussing anything publicly. Even if you discovered something nasty, it has to stay within the family.

There is great optimism for what Trezor is trying to do with the first ever open-source secure element, so let's see how that will work out.

Welsh

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Confidence as a wallet? Pretty decent. Confidence of the company, and their practices? Low. There are better alternatives out there, at least which have yet to be proven to be selling/sharing customer data. So, if you care about privacy definitely reconsider, and research the alternatives. Although, as hinted by a few users here, storing your money on a closed source wallet or a exchange wallet is literally the worst thing you could do, so is Ledger better than those? Probably, yeah.

Quote from: Pmalek on April 27, 2022, 02:41:15 PM

It's worth questioning why a product can be considered open-source if they use a closed-source secure element and no one knows what it does except that the company promises it doesn't do anything bad. And Wallet Scrutiny posted an interesting snippet from Keystone's Github:

Yeah, it's slightly counter productive. If you want to be trustworthy, the only way to be trustworthy when it comes to wallet software/hardware is by being trustless i.e having the upmost transparency e.g open source software, as well as open source hardware. Obviously, that's really hard to come by in this day, and age.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Pmalek on April 27, 2022, 02:41:15 PM

All their products are (still) marked as "no source".

I know about this regarding Keystone and that is the problem with most secure elements we have now in market, that is why we are waiting for release of new trezor secure element.
This is probably not enough but Keystone released audit report back in 2020 when they had old brand name Cobo:
https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-developer-hub/blob/main/audit-report/cobo_audit_report_2020_09_en_1_0.pdf

If you really want to go with WalletScrutiny website you will see that only few wallets code can really be reproduced, that is Passport, Trezor and Keepkey (based on Trezor code), and something similar applies for software wallets.

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on April 27, 2022, 07:41:09 AM

It's much better to generate seed on your own secure way and use open source hardware wallets like Passport, Keystone, Bitbox or Trezor.

It's worth questioning why a product can be considered open-source if they use a closed-source secure element and no one knows what it does except that the company promises it doesn't do anything bad. And Wallet Scrutiny posted an interesting snippet from Keystone's Github:

Quote

Due to copyright, some vendors’ code cannot be made public, and we have removed some of the code from the source code. Therefore this open source code cannot be compiled. However, we can share this part of code under an NDA if you want to fully verify the code and reproduce it.

https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-system

All their products are (still) marked as "no source".

dkbit98

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Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

Do you think this is good move to securing my funds much better and more safe?

Imagine trusting some random chinese made device assembled by hairy french man, that spend a bunch of money for advertising, and they lie all the time that everything is being made in China.
Pair that with a fact that ledger is closed source (they lie about that also) and they could hide who knows what in those PCB coming from China.
I would not trust any device that obviously has poor quality control, battery issues are non-stop happening for model X and they can't do anything about that.
Everything you do in ledger will be recorded and sent to ledger servers and third parties, including your IP address and wallet addresses with transactions, and who knows what else.
If you are fine with all stated above, go for it, but I hope you are well aware of the risks.

Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

Do you all have the better confidence in using these hardware wallets vs using just software?

Hardware wallets are not automatically better than software wallets, especially important part is generating seed words, that is done with closed source chips in ledger case.
It's much better to generate seed on your own secure way and use open source hardware wallets like Passport, Keystone, Bitbox or Trezor.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: Flexystar on April 23, 2022, 07:38:06 AM

I thought Ledgers (Hardware wallets in particular) were the safe heaven for our crypto.

I thought that for a long time until dkbit98's criticisms of Ledger accumulated in my brain to the extent that my paranoia took over and I decided to ditch them altogether. It's not like I have tons of crypto, but I'd like to keep what I have secure without fear of some company's close-sourced code eventually coming around to bite Ledger users in the ass.

And dkbit98, I never did reply to your last PM to me, but I wanted to thank you for your advice. I appreciate it.

Things will probably be OK if you keep your coins on a Ledger, but everyone's got their own level of risk tolerance and their own opinion of what they consider acceptable--so I might have been too cautious in giving up my Ledger (which I still own and don't plan on disposing of), but that's just me. That data breach did leave a sour taste in my mouth, though.

Pmalek

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Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

I am considering moving all my coins off places like Exodus and Coinomi and putting everything on the hardware wallet I have. using various apps available.

Storing your coins on a hardware wallet has many benefits compared to keeping them on centralized exchanges. But not all coins that are supported by the older Ledger devices work on Nano S+ currently. Monero, Polkadot, and Terra are some of the ones that are currently not working. Check out this post by dkbit98 or go to Ledger's reddit for more info.

Quote from: ABCbits on April 23, 2022, 06:52:36 AM

When the comparison is between Ledger and closed-source software, i have higher confidence on Ledger.

Me too, but it should be noted that Ledger is also closed-source and not reproducible from source.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 23, 2022, 07:28:29 AM

Also it is good to know that Ledger hardware wallet secure element is close source, no one knows how it is generating phrase, even if pregenerated, no one knows.

That's not something that is exclusive to Ledger. All secure elements are closed-source and Trezor could be the first one to develop an almost open-source chip.

Lucius

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Quote from: zasad@ on April 23, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

The Ledger Nano S Plus differs from the Ledger Nano X in the absence of a bluetooth interface and a built-in battery.

The difference had to be made between the S Plus and the X to justify the price difference, although it should be noted that the X is primarily designed as a hardware wallet that users will carry with them and connect via BlueTooth to their smartphones running Ledger Live. It is difficult to say how much this has actually come to life in practice, but given that it is not very popular to show HW in public, and some have warned of possible vulnerabilities in the use of BlueTooth, I think most use that HW exclusively with their personal computer.

Quote from: zasad@ on April 23, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

For example, I would prefer to buy Ledger Nano X with a 20-30% discount.

The price of the X is almost twice as high as the S Plus, and is around $160, so even with a discount, it is still a very expensive device. I bought my X a couple of years ago for some $90 with a discount that was as much as 35%.

zasad@

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Quote from: Lucius on April 23, 2022, 09:45:55 AM

@worldtraveller321, your thread is in the wrong board, and you know very well that we have a board dedicated specifically to hardware wallets since you have already opened several topics there. In one of these threads, you got at least some of the answers that relate to the question you are asking now.

The Ledger Nano S Plus is a new device, but in terms of safety it is very likely similar to its predecessors. The most important thing in the whole story is how you will save your backup and how you will use your device in the sense that you will always check the matching coin address on the screen of the device and the interface of the program you are using.

Follow all instructions and tips, don't do nonsense and share the seed in any way and it should be OK Wink

The Ledger Nano S Plus differs from the Ledger Nano X in the absence of a bluetooth interface and a built-in battery.

For example, I would prefer to buy Ledger Nano X with a 20-30% discount.
The last discount code I posted here
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.59913915

Lucius

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@worldtraveller321, your thread is in the wrong board, and you know very well that we have a board dedicated specifically to hardware wallets since you have already opened several topics there. In one of these threads, you got at least some of the answers that relate to the question you are asking now.

The Ledger Nano S Plus is a new device, but in terms of safety it is very likely similar to its predecessors. The most important thing in the whole story is how you will save your backup and how you will use your device in the sense that you will always check the matching coin address on the screen of the device and the interface of the program you are using.

Follow all instructions and tips, don't do nonsense and share the seed in any way and it should be OK Wink

mk4

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 23, 2022, 07:28:29 AM

Another is Ledger Live which you might prefer as it supports many coins but does not support customers' privacy

Ledger Live Liars Data Collection

Just a heads up for OP here that you don't necessarily need to use the Ledger Live software. You can connect your Ledger device to Electrum/MetaMask/Phantom and most non-mobile wallet software.

zasad@

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Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

Just got my Ledger Nano Plus Wallet now. I am considering moving all my coins off places like Exodus and Coinomi and putting everything on the hardware wallet I have. using various apps available.

Do you think this is good move to securing my funds much better and more safe?

Do you all have the better confidence in using these hardware wallets vs using just software?

Thanks for all your help/

The ledger protects against various phishing attacks, and your seed phrase should only be entered on the hardware wallet.
But most importantly, do not show your wallet to anyone, because the ledger will not protect you from an attack using a $5 wrench.

btc_angela

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If choosing the sort of lesser of two evils, definitely hardware wallet is best against closed source wallet.

But then you should know that there are a lot of scammers and pretending to be selling a legit Ledger wallet you buy them from the official manufacture's website.

Will advise as well to read this website: https://cryptosec.info/wallets/.

Flexystar

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One positive comment and one little bit mixed one, what's the play here? I thought Ledgers (Hardware wallets in particular) were the safe heaven for our crypto. As far as I have read many publishers the reviews are pretty straight and good for the Ledger Nano Plus. Moreover, if we even visit myetherwallet and try to access the wallet with soft data then it is not recommended by them as well while on the other hand Hardware Wallet has been marked way safer.

On technical point view you might be right but for normal person who just started with the crypto and want cold store the assets, Hardware wallet is the choice.

OP, as per @ETFbitcoin, just keep that data safe and you are good to go.

Charles-Tim

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Ledger is better than those close source wallets but it has its downsides too.

First of all are the people that bought Ledger wallet and/or its accessories directly from the company that their data was leaked to the public. Some even called Ledger Nano owners on phones, though speaking different language that they will visit them at their home. That was a threat to be sincere.

Another is Ledger Live which you might prefer as it supports many coins but does not support customers' privacy

Ledger Live Liars Data Collection

Also it is good to know that Ledger hardware wallet secure element is close source, no one knows how it is generating seed phrase, even if pregenerated, no one knows.

Although, Ledger Nano S Plus support more NFTs and other altcoins which is a good reason to get it. But I would prefer to go for open source hardware wallet.

For bitcoin, I had preferred Electrum cold storage on airgapped device which is more secure to me with using QR code for making transaction, and still avoiding malware though.

ABCbits

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Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

Do you think this is good move to securing my funds much better and more safe?

Yes, assuming you already check your device is genuine[1] and you already backup the recovery words.

Quote from: worldtraveller321 on April 23, 2022, 06:36:36 AM

Do you all have the better confidence in using these hardware wallets vs using just software?

When the comparison is between Ledger and closed-source software, i have higher confidence on Ledger.

[1] https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404389367057-Is-my-Ledger-device-genuine-

worldtraveller321

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Just got my Ledger Nano Plus Wallet now. I am considering moving all my coins off places like Exodus and Coinomi and putting everything on the hardware wallet I have. using various apps available.

Do you think this is good move to securing my funds much better and more safe?

Do you all have the better confidence in using these hardware wallets vs using just software?

Thanks for all your help/

Topic: Ledger Wallet Confidence? (Read 205 times)