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Topic: Legal Research - page 2. (Read 8092 times)

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
October 17, 2012, 08:39:37 PM
#84
The intangible asset classification (like goodwill) raises the question whether any (all?) digital money would be classed as intangible wouldn't it?

FASB and IFRS are standards not law. More error from the fledgling Legal Beagle.

You, sir, are in over your head on this topic.  Allow me to shut you down:

(1) The SEC is an administrative agency.
(2) SEC makes administrative law, which is a very important part of the legal spectrum
(3) The SEC requires certain entities to use GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) in their financial reporting
(4) GAAP contains Goodwill reporting requirements
(4.1) Incidentally, FASB is responsible for establishing GAAP.

But keep it up with the creative nicknames.  Really effective logic there.

Just fyi ... GAAP were suspended at the height of the financial crises in 2008 ... I'm not sure if they have been re-instated ... hey maybe there's some really useful research you could do for society?

Find out what the status is of GAAP being applied to major banking institutions, particularly with regards to the "mark-to-market" or "mark-to-model" rules of MBS held by the off-balance sheet entities of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase .... the public really got screwed over on that one, go at it!

Seeing as you seem to have abandoned doing anything novel in the Bitcoin field, since
"I've talked to a lot of professors and practicing attorneys in the last week or so, and they all agree that the attachment of property rights to bitcoin is so obvious that it is barely even a legitimate question."
is probably not really "Legal Research", and probably not any more conclusive than hearsay.
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
October 17, 2012, 08:33:33 PM
#83
Assuming that a particular law has to be enforceable to have any meaning, would it be possible to enforce anything in case bitcoins considered "property"? If not, shouldn't bitcoins be considered "not property" on that basis alone?

Of course it would be possible to enforce a judgment.  Judgment liens and jail time make the court system quite coercive. 

That's why technical details matters. For example, in a lot of cases you won't be able to prove that a person received any bitcoins, and it would be funny to try to coerce the person to give up bitcoins when you don't know if he has it.

In a lot of cases you aren't able to prove a person has received cash either.  Doesn't change much. 
sr. member
Activity: 269
Merit: 250
October 17, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
#82
Assuming that a particular law has to be enforceable to have any meaning, would it be possible to enforce anything in case bitcoins considered "property"? If not, shouldn't bitcoins be considered "not property" on that basis alone?

Of course it would be possible to enforce a judgment.  Judgment liens and jail time make the court system quite coercive. 

That's why technical details matters. For example, in a lot of cases you won't be able to prove that a person received any bitcoins, and it would be funny to try to coerce the person to give up bitcoins when you don't know if he has it.
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
October 17, 2012, 08:15:49 PM
#81
The intangible asset classification (like goodwill) raises the question whether any (all?) digital money would be classed as intangible wouldn't it?

FASB and IFRS are standards not law. More error from the fledgling Legal Beagle.

You, sir, are in over your head on this topic.  Allow me to shut you down:

(1) The SEC is an administrative agency.
(2) SEC makes administrative law, which is a very important part of the legal spectrum
(3) The SEC requires certain entities to use GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) in their financial reporting
(4) GAAP contains Goodwill reporting requirements
(4.1) Incidentally, FASB is responsible for establishing GAAP.

But keep it up with the creative nicknames.  Really effective logic there.

newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
October 17, 2012, 08:02:06 PM
#80
Assuming that a particular law has to be enforceable to have any meaning, would it be possible to enforce anything in case bitcoins considered "property"? If not, shouldn't bitcoins be considered "not property" on that basis alone?

Of course it would be possible to enforce a judgment.  Judgment liens and jail time make the court system quite coercive. 
sr. member
Activity: 269
Merit: 250
October 17, 2012, 07:55:03 PM
#79
Assuming that a particular law has to be enforceable to have any meaning, would it be possible to enforce anything in case bitcoins considered "property"? If not, shouldn't bitcoins be considered "not property" on that basis alone?
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
October 17, 2012, 07:51:08 PM
#78
I stopped responding because the argument that there are no property rights in bitcoin whatsoever is completely ridiculous and not even worthy of my time.  There are property rights in WoW gold (subject to your contract with Blizzard), why should this be any different?  

If a bitcoin scam makes it to court, no judge in their right mind is going to say, "Oh, sorry, you're screwed out of your $10k investment because there are no property rights in bitcoin."  They're going to attach property rights, and award fair market value, regardless of whether any fiat currency changed hands between the victim and the scammer.  James Madison said that property is "that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual," (quoting William Blackstone) and that "it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right . . . ."

If you can't grasp that concept, this may help:

If I steal 10,000 in euros from you and you sue to recover it, the judgment you're awarded is not the intrinsic value of the paper and ink that it was printed on.  It is the value of the cash in the marketplace.  The same thing applies if someone hacks into your bank account, where most of the money only exists as accounting entries.  Money is an intangible asset with property rights.  Bitcoin is an intangible asset with property rights.  What exactly is so farfetched about this idea???  We have always had property rights in mediums of exchange.  It's basic commerce.

Sunnankar:

I don't know any better way to articulate it than this:  you're an idiot.  The only real "goose chase" I've been on at all was looking into the topic you suggested in the first place.  I've talked to a lot of professors and practicing attorneys in the last week or so, and they all agree that the attachment of property rights to bitcoin is so obvious that it is barely even a legitimate question.  So thanks for absolutely nothing.

I'm also wondering what qualifications you have that make you feel like you know so much, because after talking with extremely competent attorneys and professors, I see that everything you've said in this thread is laughably wrong.  It was a huge waste of time to even respond to you.  Do you even practice law or have any legal training whatsoever?  Even if you do, I would be shocked to learn you did anything more complex than ambulance chasing or divorces.

If you guys still don't agree, that's fine, you can just wait for the first court case involving bitcoin.  I know that doesn't add much to my argument now, but it'll make it that much better when that opinion comes out and I can pull this thread up again.


legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
October 17, 2012, 06:57:00 PM
#77
Quote
to turning the blockchain into something recognizable to legal system(s).

... because bending technology to suit the legal system(s) inflexibility is such a good idea ....

or, perhaps it's looking at the law as the distillation of centuries' worth of human experience with transactions, property, and disputes, and piggybacking on the lessons learned by others, rather than insisting on novelty for its own sake, and re-learning some difficult lessons the hard way.

That is what common law and stare decisis is all about. The problem is that the legal conclusion of ownership of bitcoins does not fit neatly into that history with this new technology.

Sure, foxes have a lot in common with fish, oil and natural gas (all areas of law shaped by that stupid fox!). But it takes the legal system a while to get there.
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
October 17, 2012, 06:32:33 PM
#76
Quote
to turning the blockchain into something recognizable to legal system(s).

... because bending technology to suit the legal system(s) inflexibility is such a good idea ....

or, perhaps it's looking at the law as the distillation of centuries' worth of human experience with transactions, property, and disputes, and piggybacking on the lessons learned by others, rather than insisting on novelty for its own sake, and re-learning some difficult lessons the hard way.

legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
October 17, 2012, 06:22:24 PM
#75
What happened to LegalEagle? Perhaps, he is off reading Brainwallet: The Ultimate in Mobile Money

Perhaps wandering around in the weeds.

What is the saying? Good choices come from experience and experience comes from bad choices. And a smart man learns from his own bad choices a really smart man learns from the bad choices of others.

Our little Legal Beagle seems to have a preconception about what Bitcoin and bitcoins are thus forming a legal conclusion and is now trying to fit the law to match that legal conclusion (and probably having a very hard time doing so!). Typical error from one who fails to reason correctly.

Hopefully I can find some caselaw that defines money more clearly.

Good luck, have your library get you a copy of Dr. Vieira's Pieces of Eight. Hurry, it may take a while. But to save you some time; you are probably chasing a red herring off in the weeds with this issue.

Perhaps.  But I do think bitcoins are property, even if they're not considered "money".

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
October 17, 2012, 05:19:07 PM
#74
Quote
to turning the blockchain into something recognizable to legal system(s).

... because bending technology to suit the legal system(s) inflexibility is such a good idea ....
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
October 17, 2012, 01:06:00 PM
#73
While this doesn't address the wallet/keypair issue, one way to more clearly define the role/meaning of the blockchain would be for it to include actual statements of fact or performative utterances.

I don't know what the actual data structure of the blockchain looks like - but whatever it looks like today, it could be modified to include something like:

"I, the holder of private key , with respect to the 5.5 BTC I received in prior block , assert that I am the legal owner thereof, and I further assign all right, title, and interest in those funds as follows: 2.5 BTC to the holder of private key and 3.0 BTC to the holder of private key ."

.. the main advantage I see to that would be that it could potentially turn misuse of someone's BTC's into fraud, given the explicit assertion of ownership, which if false, might constitute fraud. (Fraud has a complicated legal definition which is different from state to state, so I'm using that term loosely here.)

On the other hand, I recognize that not everyone wants to reach that result; but this strikes me as one approach to turning the blockchain into something recognizable to legal system(s).

sr. member
Activity: 303
Merit: 251
October 17, 2012, 11:16:25 AM
#72
I think your copyright argument is far too tenuous and detached from both the spirit and intent of copyright law and the actual protections it grants.

But even accepting for the sake of argument your previous points; how do you attach a copyright to the private key that is stored in the form of a brainwallet?

What happened to LegalEagle? Perhaps, he is off reading Brainwallet: The Ultimate in Mobile Money


You are trying to establish a property right in the private key, right?

Perfectly stated. A private key, especially in the form of a brainwallet, is an "illusory" and unenforceable construct. If not a legal air guitar, then it is most likely a negotiable verbal IOU with about the same level of enforceability.
legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
October 17, 2012, 01:35:39 AM
#71
The intangible asset classification (like goodwill) raises the question whether any (all?) digital money would be classed as intangible wouldn't it?

FASB and IFRS are standards not law. More error from the fledgling Legal Beagle. Although, tax carryovers from goodwill could be construed as property interests but that is most likely totally outside the scope of this discussion.

Like the digital money held in databases of MegaBank corp on deposit for loyal customers, wouldn't that be an "intangible asset" by the same reasoning as bitcoin is an intangible asset?

No. FRN$ can be titled just like real property, such as a house, can be titled. There is a chain of title whether recorded or not. Just because the title exists both physically and digitally does not necessarily make the underlying asset 'intangible'.

The issue is whether 'bitcoins' can be owned or titled? There is clear law on banking and deposits, etc. including areas like escheat. Bitcoin is governed under the MIT license and 'bitcoins' are just math equation outputs. The argument against property ownership in bitcoins is akin to just like you 2+2=4 and Person A cannot claim title to '4' so likewise the 'bitcoins' in an address are like '4'. Therefore, 'bitcoins' and 'bank deposits' are different when it comes to property interests.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
October 16, 2012, 09:00:54 PM
#70
The intangible asset classification (like goodwill) raises the question whether any (all?) digital money would be classed as intangible wouldn't it?

Like the digital money held in databases of MegaBank corp on deposit for loyal customers, wouldn't that be an "intangible asset" by the same reasoning as bitcoin is an intangible asset?

Aren't all currencies that are not redeemable in hard asset (like gold, silver, commodity basket) intangible assets?
sr. member
Activity: 333
Merit: 250
October 16, 2012, 02:23:42 AM
#69

I think it would be helpful to distinguish between discussing code that achieves a particular result (the source code or executables for, say, bitcoind) and the output or results of using that code.

There should be no argument that Excel, the spreadsheet, is subject to copyright. And there should also be no argument that, if I use Excel (or some other computerized tool) to calculate the result of an equation or expression, that the result is not subject to copyright by virtue of the fact that I used copyrighted code to create it, versus working it out by hand with pencil & paper.

Agreed.  Bitcoin is software, a messaging network, a distributed storage device, a collective of workers who modify storage, and a property concept.

The software license is explicitly stated, so I believe it's solid. MIT/X11.
The messaging network uses the software, its not particularly creative, but needs to be protected as speech.
The distributed storage device is the block chain which has no explicit license to go with it.  None on the horizon.
The collective of workers (miners) are the ones who update the block chain.  Not sure where they live in this whole picture.
The property concept is some kind of intangible, hopefully one that can live comfortably within the law.

Quote
I do not see a meaningful difference between a simple equation and a complicated one - I suspect that all of us would easily agree that "2 * 2 = 4" is not subject to copyright; I find the idea that "342972134893249 * 212312389547523 = 72817233507401087375017372227" is not copyrightable a tiny bit more uncomfortable, since obviously there's more work required to reach the result, and that's not exactly an equation that a lot of us wander around with at the tip of our tongues. But I can't come up with a principled legal reason to distinguish between them, that's meaningful in a copyright sense, since it's well established that copyright is intended to protect creative expression, not sweat-of-the-brow hard work (see, e.g., Feist v. Rural Telephone).

Its how people use the software/math that makes the difference.  An MP3 encoder is just a set of equations too, but if you feed it a creative work, you still get a creative work no matter how much math is involved.  In Bitcoin, the math is just a transport layer for the messages from people who have the freedom to speak.  I probably can't make the copyright argument whole, but people sending messages to each other has to be protectable at least.

Quote
So I am curious to hear more about the argument that BTC could be protected by copyright - either the private keys ("wallet"), or the abstract idea of value which is represented on the blockchain and is controlled by the keys. The private keypair, as far as I know (and this is bumping up against the limit of my understanding of the technical side of BTC/Bitcoin) is simply a group of numbers that happen to have a particular characteristic; they were identified through an iterative process by which potential candidates were created randomly and tested for having that characteristic, and the first which were found to have that characteristic were selected. So I don't really see any of the traditional creative/editorial input from a human being which has historically been an essential part of the creation of a copyrightable work.

I've tried fairly extensively to make a copyright argument stick, but I've yet to find one that doesn't have a giant hole in it that a judge would plow right through.

Another possible outline: The private keys themselves are an number representing an idea (so not protectable).  The address is an expression of that idea (too brief to be copyrighted). The broadcast of the message to the network is a person trying to say something very unique (speech).  The miners writing it into the block chain is an update to a collective work (collection of speech).

Still lots of problems here.  The address might be too brief (but its incredibly unique, which is the important legal test in precedence).  The broadcast to the network might not be considered speech.  And I have no idea where the block chain falls.  I've suggested that it be explicit covered by a public domain license, but even that's murky waters at this point.

Vanity addresses make it even more interesting.  Now you have a creative work that took a ton of effort to come upon.  Its still very brief by normal standards.  But I can't find anywhere in precedence where brevity prevented protection.  I've only seen uniqueness.  And addresses have mathematically provable uniqueness.  This is another case of a program doing all the "creative" work since vanitygen or oclvanityminer will actually create the address.

For another analogy to a distributed money system,  see Halwala.  Someone mentioned it on the forums earlier.  It came up in US vs Banki I believe.  Similar to Bitcoin, but that case was more about moving money to Iran than anything else.  Oh yeah, and they were using real money.

legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
October 16, 2012, 01:45:04 AM
#68
But I can't come up with a principled legal reason to distinguish between them,

Now we are getting somewhere. I told you this was not a very easy issue and it is a condition precedent to so many other arguments.

So I am curious to hear more about the argument that BTC could be protected by copyright - either the private keys ("wallet"), or the abstract idea of value which is represented on the blockchain and is controlled by the keys.

A few days ago I ran into a very prominent IP attorney and legal theorist who has published a few IP focused books and a book about online contract formation. He was gracious enough to spend about 15-20 minutes answering a few of my questions in the hallway. I objectively explained the Bitcoin facts, as best as I understand them, and asked if any property rights could attach and if so what kinds. He probed me further on more specific facts, etc. The bottom line was probably not, as I suspected, but he would do some additional research on it because he found the topic very interesting (particularly the part about being able to form contracts/meditation with 2 of 3 keys signing a transaction, etc.).

Anyway, just some more shoulder shrugging I suppose.

In many ways, Bitcoin is reinventing the Torrens title system, except that the underlying good is an intangible shared expectation of value, not real estate; and there isn't one central registry, but a decentralized peer-to-peer registry.

And given that real property could theoretically be titled in the blockchain and actually be more secure than a typical registry with big banks engaging in false affidavits, counterfeit court summons, etc. ..... it remains to be seen what else might flow out of this new math problem known as Bitcoin.
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
October 15, 2012, 08:17:15 PM
#67
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
October 15, 2012, 07:40:23 PM
#66
Alright, so I just finished reading through this thread, and I must say I'm a bit confused....what exactly are we talking about here? Is the primary topic focused on 'property and Bitcoin' or are we just spit-balling various legal issues for LegalEagle to research for his paper?

Spit-balling, imo.
sr. member
Activity: 333
Merit: 250
October 15, 2012, 12:40:27 PM
#65
Alright, so I just finished reading through this thread, and I must say I'm a bit confused....what exactly are we talking about here? Is the primary topic focused on 'property and Bitcoin' or are we just spit-balling various legal issues for LegalEagle to research for his paper?

LegalEagle offered that he is going to write a paper on the property rights surrounding Bitcoin a few posts back.  Everything past that is an attempt to drill into the issue and figure out why or why not it is property. 

Because of the analogy with real coins, "I own 5.6 Bitcoins" is easy to express, but hard to support legally.

I'm open to hearing other interesting aspects though.
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