Lets think about the consequences of selling bitcoins to bankers. Our enemy.

TippingPoint

legendary

Activity: 905

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ArticMine on June 04, 2013, 01:39:45 PM

When it comes to the enemies of Bitcoin, it is not banks nor for that matter governments. The biggest enemy of Bitcoin so far has been Apple who by using their market share worldwide as a tool for censorship has already done way more damage.

At a very fundamental level Apple's business model is predicated on taking complete control over computing devices away from end users, on the other hand Bitcoin's entire security model is predicated on end users having complete control over their computing devices. The conflict on a very fundamental level should be clear to anyone who actually cares to look.

I should add that when it comes to harming Bitcoin Microsoft, is steadily heading in that direction with DRM, particularly after Vista, "secure" boot in Windows 8 and especially with Windows 8 RT. So when it comes to the enemies of Bitcoin after Apple's gold Microsoft is fighting hard for silver.

Before going to war it might be a good idea to first determine who the real enemies are.

Nice post. Buried in a vast ocean of alphanumeric packing material.

Centuries from now, archaeologists may discover it.

Seth Otterstad

sr. member

Activity: 328

Merit: 250

Quote from: benjamindees on June 04, 2013, 12:28:43 PM

Quote from: Seth Otterstad on June 04, 2013, 12:00:04 PM

The bread and butter of banking profits is investing customer deposits.

Oh, jeez, please spare us from hearing your grandmother's view of how the world works. It's a Wonderful Life hasn't been a realistic model of banking for decades. Banks don't care about deposited capital. They "invest" by using free money from the FED and insider information to front-run their own customers. This predatory collusion between bankers and government is the entire reason Bitcoin exists. And, yes, the OP is entirely correct to point out that banks will naturally attempt to use their government-granted privileges to co-opt Bitcoin, just like they co-opt everything else. They aren't your friends.

Clearly you are American and are under the impression that if something operates a certain way for 4% of the world's population, the entire planet must be the same. The US banking system is archaic relative to other first world countries. The vast majority of the world's banks earn their profits from reinvesting customer deposits.

US banks have 9t in deposits. Saying they "don't care about deposited capital" is idiotic. Loaning that out is how they make their money.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-19/us-deposits-perspective-25-billion-insurance-9283-billion-deposits-297514-billion-de

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

Quote from: Seth Otterstad on June 04, 2013, 12:00:04 PM

The government is our enemy, not the banks. Banks don't make too much money on the areas that bitcoin will attack, which is stuff like wire fees and currency conversion fees. The bread and butter of banking profits is investing customer deposits. They don't care if that currency is USD or EUR or bitcoin. They will let me deposit bitcoin, make a profit with it, and give me a return.

Replace "The government" with "Apple" and I will say +1

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

When it comes to the enemies of Bitcoin, it is not banks nor for that matter governments. The biggest enemy of Bitcoin so far has been Apple who by using their market share worldwide as a tool for censorship has already done way more damage.

At a very fundamental level Apple's business model is predicated on taking complete control over computing devices away from end users, on the other hand Bitcoin's entire security model is predicated on end users having complete control over their computing devices. The conflict on a very fundamental level should be clear to anyone who actually cares to look.

I should add that when it comes to harming Bitcoin Microsoft, is steadily heading in that direction with DRM, particularly after Vista, "secure" boot in Windows 8 and especially with Windows 8 RT. So when it comes to the enemies of Bitcoin after Apple's gold Microsoft is fighting hard for silver.

Before going to war it might be a good idea to first determine who the real enemies are.

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: lch on June 03, 2013, 09:26:28 PM

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

Cut money out of it, and build a new world!!!!! And you will also see spending habits change, where dollars are attached to numbers, bitcoin become more than a number, it is unit of value.

I do think bitcoin may need to be reset. Let the current mode allow the miners to upgrade their software to asic, and then reset the game. Next time with no money involved. Just bitcoin to bitcoin.

benjamindees

legendary

Activity: 1330

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Seth Otterstad on June 04, 2013, 12:00:04 PM

The bread and butter of banking profits is investing customer deposits.

Oh, jeez, please spare us from hearing your grandmother's view of how the world works. It's a Wonderful Life hasn't been a realistic model of banking for decades. Banks don't care about deposited capital. They "invest" by using free money from the FED and insider information to front-run their own customers. This predatory collusion between bankers and government is the entire reason Bitcoin exists. And, yes, the OP is entirely correct to point out that banks will naturally attempt to use their government-granted privileges to co-opt Bitcoin, just like they co-opt everything else. They aren't your friends.

Seth Otterstad

sr. member

Activity: 328

Merit: 250

The government is our enemy, not the banks. Banks don't make too much money on the areas that bitcoin will attack, which is stuff like wire fees and currency conversion fees. The bread and butter of banking profits is investing customer deposits. They don't care if that currency is USD or EUR or bitcoin. They will let me deposit bitcoin, make a profit with it, and give me a return.

tutkarz

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 501

Quote from: CtrlAltBernanke420 on June 04, 2013, 08:30:29 AM

Quote from: tutkarz on June 04, 2013, 08:13:01 AM

Quote from: wopwop on June 04, 2013, 03:54:08 AM

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

yep because we should listen to you and value bitcoin at $0.01 so nobody has any use of it. and maybe also send it somewhere so its not hoarded, maybe to your account? but then again, you will be hoarding them all and what will you do with that? shoot yourself?

hoarding increases value of bitcoin and bitcoin have to have meaningful value to be useful because there is too low amount for world needs. i know its hard for you to grasp it. but maybe someday you will be enlighten too.

hoarding, sets up the scenario for massive dollar based price fluctuations, aka Volatility. Rendering it useless for trade.

I think 1 satoshi is equal to 0.10 cents.

We have the internet, there is no reason people can not get on board now-a-days. Its called synchronicity.

it would be good that some people would finally understand, that thanks to bitcoin promise of becoming rich and thanks to possibility to hoard bitcoins, we are talking here in this forums in the first place. Because if it wouldn't be possible, nobody would know about bitcoin to this day and nobody would use bitcoin ever. Because if it would have fiat properties and on top of all cons of fiat it would be also unregulated, then it would have 0 value forever and it would be impossible to even transfer any money using it.

When people will understand this then maybe they will stop complaining and forcing people to do things they dont want to do. Because we already had this in history when our precious governments cheated on us saying our money was worth as much as gold and later even stopped pretending its worth that much, they created financial crisis we already have. Imagine, you are trying to do the same. And bitcoin was created because of that crisis.

Quote

Why did ripple decide to give ripples away for free?

they didnt. many people including me didnt got any ripple for free and guess what, they advised me to BUY them. good one.

btw how much money you can transfer using protocol that has 0 value? simple question to enable thinking.

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: hashman on June 04, 2013, 09:00:52 AM

Quote from: CtrlAltBernanke420 on June 04, 2013, 07:54:19 AM

Quote from: ProfMac on June 03, 2013, 11:06:51 PM

A bank here has customers from another country, and they send money home. Bitcoin is cheap. A bank to bank settling mechanism with bitcoin would help the banks, and in turn make banks protect bitcoin. Don't treat them as an enemy, treat them as a powerful neighbor that we want to form an alliance with.

To get bitcoins without mining: do what you do with money without a printing press. Work, or sell goods & services. I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins.
Find what you can sell.

The banks will never be your friend. Hindsight vision is 20-20 right?

Bankers are our enemy? You need to be more specific. Are you talking about MtGox? Jamie Dimon? Perhaps you mean US Central Bankers? Satoshi, who figured out great ways to store, use and transfer money, was a banker. If you're just looking for a scapegoat why not use traditional racial ones?

The bankers fiat

Maybe I am on point with my argument, just 20 years too soon.

hashman

legendary

Activity: 1264

Merit: 1008

Quote from: CtrlAltBernanke420 on June 04, 2013, 07:54:19 AM

Quote from: ProfMac on June 03, 2013, 11:06:51 PM

A bank here has customers from another country, and they send money home. Bitcoin is cheap. A bank to bank settling mechanism with bitcoin would help the banks, and in turn make banks protect bitcoin. Don't treat them as an enemy, treat them as a powerful neighbor that we want to form an alliance with.

To get bitcoins without mining: do what you do with money without a printing press. Work, or sell goods & services. I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins.
Find what you can sell.

The banks will never be your friend. Hindsight vision is 20-20 right?

Bankers are our enemy? You need to be more specific. Are you talking about MtGox? Jamie Dimon? Perhaps you mean US Central Bankers? Satoshi, who figured out great ways to store, use and transfer money, was a banker. If you're just looking for a scapegoat why not use traditional racial ones?

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: lch on June 03, 2013, 09:26:28 PM

In a deflationary currency, such as bitcoins, gold, and silver hoarding is a natural occurrence. Therefore I'm fine with it.

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

Donation from the miners...

Mining itself does not produce anything, espcially if one mines a bunch of BTC, cashes out and turns off computer.

But if miner acts as central banker...

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: tutkarz on June 04, 2013, 08:13:01 AM

Quote from: wopwop on June 04, 2013, 03:54:08 AM

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

yep because we should listen to you and value bitcoin at $0.01 so nobody has any use of it. and maybe also send it somewhere so its not hoarded, maybe to your account? but then again, you will be hoarding them all and what will you do with that? shoot yourself?

hoarding increases value of bitcoin and bitcoin have to have meaningful value to be useful because there is too low amount for world needs. i know its hard for you to grasp it. but maybe someday you will be enlighten too.

hoarding, sets up the scenario for massive dollar based price fluctuations, aka Volatility. Rendering it useless for trade.

I think 1 satoshi is equal to 0.10 cents.

We have the internet, there is no reason people can not get on board now-a-days. Its called synchronicity.

Why did ripple decide to give ripples away for free?

tutkarz

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 501

Quote from: wopwop on June 04, 2013, 03:54:08 AM

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

yep because we should listen to you and value bitcoin at $0.01 so nobody has any use of it. and maybe also send it somewhere so its not hoarded, maybe to your account? but then again, you will be hoarding them all and what will you do with that? shoot yourself?

hoarding increases value of bitcoin and bitcoin have to have meaningful value to be useful because there is too low amount for world needs. i know its hard for you to grasp it. but maybe someday you will be enlighten too.

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

If fiat is cut out from bitcoin, no one is 'laundering money,' there are no regulations to comply with, And bitcoin gains a stable unique unarguable value that does not suffer from exchange rate volatility.

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: wopwop on June 04, 2013, 03:54:08 AM

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

I do think there are possible routes to disperse bitcoin to 2billion people, more than 1 satotishi also. There are ways to get adoption moving quickly. That is something the banks will freak the F out over.

CtrlAltBernanke420

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: ProfMac on June 03, 2013, 11:06:51 PM

Quote from: lch on June 03, 2013, 09:26:28 PM

In a deflationary currency, such as bitcoins, gold, and silver hoarding is a natural occurrence. Therefore I'm fine with it.

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

A bank here has customers from another country, and they send money home. Bitcoin is cheap. A bank to bank settling mechanism with bitcoin would help the banks, and in turn make banks protect bitcoin. Don't treat them as an enemy, treat them as a powerful neighbor that we want to form an alliance with.

To get bitcoins without mining: do what you do with money without a printing press. Work, or sell goods & services. I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins.
Find what you can sell.

The banks will never be your friend. Hindsight vision is 20-20 right?

wopwop

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

tutkarz

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 501

Quote from: CtrlAltBernanke420 on June 03, 2013, 09:14:52 PM

I’ll be honest, the hoarding mania has got to go if bitcoin protocol is ever to support a fully fledged BTC currency. (...)

and here i stopped reading that text. if you think people should stop hoarding bitcoins then it means you have no clue what bitcoin is about and how it works. nor how economy works. im not going to explain it here because it was said many times, just read more topics on this forum before trying to suggest more of such statements.

frott

newbie

Activity: 38

Merit: 0

Quote from: lch on June 03, 2013, 11:22:50 PM

Quote from: ProfMac on June 03, 2013, 11:06:51 PM

To get bitcoins without mining: do what you do with money without a printing press. Work, or sell goods & services. I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins.
Find what you can sell.

Well I agree that is true, however that doing solve the underlying problem of scarcity.

A person who does not have a single unit of currency, be it bitcoin, USD, or otherwise are subjected to the control of whoever is holding the currency. I believe the problem can be alleviated if there was a way for the person with 0 currency to obtain some currency via the system itself. Because the system has no interest in manipulating its users.

With scarcity its essentially a zero sum game. Where either you have it or you don't. Bitcoin need not be such a system. At least that is what i believe.

Well I believe that is the idea behind ripple. I had the same concept as you, calling it IdeaCoin, where it doesn't matter what the underlying implement is... but the problem comes down to "doing work" for it, aka, moving the blockchain along = generating coin.

That is the nature of btc, and will be unchangeable. The valuation would go bananas if suddenly there wasn't a scarcity issue.

frott

newbie

Activity: 38

Merit: 0

Quote from: CtrlAltBernanke420 on June 03, 2013, 09:26:34 PM

Bitcoin should at all attempts avoid trading a bitcoin for cash. A bitcoin economy is born, the current financial system collapses so something new can be built in its place.

I am with you in terms of sentiment... in terms of practical reality, you're on your own (maybe on the moon!)

As much as I want bitcoin to be what you're saying, you're not really providing a roadmap for how bitcoin will become mainstream without attaching to it first.

what you're saying is as if bitcoin is a tsunami that will crash onto the mainstream and crush it under its sheer force of will, creating a new entity.
EVERYTHING, ONLY, BITCOIN

what is far more realistic is bitcoin is a stream parallel to the mainstream that will widen until it joins with the mainstream and forms a wider mainstream. BITCOIN ALONGSIDE OTHERS

to get literal, wider adoption is great. but with that comes more regulation if more people are to use it. in short, govs aren't worried about bitcoin as more than a few smart people realizing clearly how money could work (and a whole lotta dumb people feeling the sentiment without really knowing why), because in the end of the day, as long as there's a gov, there is a gov approved currency and that's what you have to give the gov, and that's what gov sanctioned businesses will give you.

the counter force here is that the gov wants more tracking, not less.

Topic: Lets think about the consequences of selling bitcoins to bankers. Our enemy. (Read 2024 times)