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Topic: Liberty Dollar Sentencing scheduled - page 2. (Read 7076 times)

legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1000
Well hello there!
December 02, 2014, 07:10:23 PM
#12
Wow, so judges can make up laws themselves Why do we have written laws at all then?

A court in Stalinist Russia could not have been worse. Disgusting.

I wonder whether the coins could have been quadratic and called Liberty Galleons and he would still have been indicted.  Angry
Law's are nothing more than rules governing "civilized" societies.  You've heard the age old expression...he who has the power makes the rules?

Until takes it's final breath, these types of injustices will only continue to happen.

I wish him the best of luck.  Sounds like he could use some good luck right about now.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1014
December 02, 2014, 06:32:52 PM
#11
Wow, so judges can make up laws themselves Why do we have written laws at all then?

A court in Stalinist Russia could not have been worse. Disgusting.

I wonder whether the coins could have been quadratic and called Liberty Galleons and he would still have been indicted.  Angry
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
December 02, 2014, 02:44:57 PM
#10
Today is the sentencing...

The Wall Street Journal article has some insights on this.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/seth-lipsky-a-monetary-gadfly-in-an-age-of-fiat-money-1417478381

Quote
Tuesday morning at 9:30, a federal judge in North Carolina will gavel his court into session to pronounce a sentence on Bernard von NotHaus. A monetary gadfly in an age of fiat money, Mr. von NotHaus, 70, could be looking at the rest of his life in prison.

Nearly four years ago, a jury convicted Mr. von NotHaus of “uttering”—putting into circulation—coins of pure silver that he called Liberty Dollars. The government is also seeking the forfeiture of 16,000 pounds of coins and precious metals whose value it reckons at $7 million.

The federal prosecutor, Anne Tompkins, put out a news release stating that “attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism” and “represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

This is something to think about at a time when the China, the Europeans, the United Nations and various leaders of the World Bank are wondering whether we need a new or better reserve currency. And when Congress is fizzing with disquiet about the dollar.

Mr. von NotHaus suggests that likening him to a terrorist is absurd. “This is the United States government,” he told the New York Times two years ago. “. . . it has nuclear weapons, and it’s worried about some ex-surfer guy making his own money? Give me a break.”

ENLARGE
GETTY IMAGES
Whether Judge Richard Voorhees will—or should—give Mr. von NotHaus a break, this is beyond a newspaperman’s ken. But it can certainly be said that Mr. von NotHaus has, despite his zeal, done a public service by raising serious questions about U.S. currency.

I have no financial interest in his case. I have never owned a Liberty Dollar, and I have met the coin’s creator only once, over a cup of coffee. My interest is journalistic. The scoop is that Mr. von NotHaus’s Liberty Dollar poses the opposite danger of Copernicus ’s famous monetary principle.

That principle, also known as Gresham’s law, holds that bad money drives out good. Mr. von NotHaus has instilled in the government the contrary fear—that good money in the form of silver dollars will drive out the bad money issued by the Federal Reserve.

Since the collapse in 1971 of the Bretton Woods system that since midcentury had tied most industrialized countries’ currencies to gold, the value of the dollar that the Federal Reserve is supposed to protect plunged 90%, to less than 1/15th of an ounce of silver. The Foundation for Monetary Education calls Federal Reserve notes “legal tender irredeemable paper-ticket electronic money.”

These matters were considered by Judge Voorhees, who has been presiding in the von NotHaus case. They were raised most pointedly in an amicus brief by the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee, a charity that fights for a constitutional view of money.

That brief argued that Congress lacks the power to prohibit private coinage of money. It argued that the Constitution’s grant of the coinage power to Congress isn’t exclusive. If it were, the Constitution wouldn’t have had separately to deny coinage power to the states.

The fact that the Founders specifically denied coinage power to the states but not to the people means, the line of argument suggests, that private coinage ends up as a right reserved to the people. In fact, private coinage existed long into the 19th century, particularly, but not exclusively, in the West.

Judge Voorhees took a few years to let the post-conviction arguments percolate, but, in the end, he didn’t buy them. In upholding the conviction last month, he conceded that the Constitution doesn’t “expressly state” that the coinage power belongs exclusively to Congress. But he went on to assert that the exclusivity can be “reasonably inferred” because the power is prohibited to the states.

The judge accepted what he characterized as the “jury’s implicit finding” that the “Liberty Dollar is counterfeit despite its intrinsic value.” He was unfazed by the fact that the Liberty Dollars during much of the past decade had been worth more than their face value and more than Mr. von NotHaus sold them for.

One “weakness” in the intrinsic-value argument, Judge Voorhees wrote in sweeping aside the constitutional objections, is that “von NotHaus and his organization were making money off their sales of the Liberty Dollar.” If that’s such a crime, though, what is one going to do about the director of the United States Mint?

The U.S. Mint, after all, is hawking a “50th Anniversary Kennedy 2014 Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin” for $1,165. The mint boasts that the coin, featuring a relief of the bust of the 35th president, contains “Three-Quarter Ounce of Pure, 24-Karat Gold.” So it’s selling the coin at a 29% premium over the price of gold.

It isn’t my purpose here to suggest putting the director of the Mint in jail. Or even to suggest that Judge Voorhees failed to apply the law. But “if the law supposes” what the judge has found here, then Mr. Bumble in Charles Dickens ’s “ Oliver Twist ” had it about right: “the law is a ass.”

“The worst I wish the law is that his eye may be opened by experience,” Mr. Bumble added. Not bad advice for this astonishing case. If Mr. von NotHaus is sent to prison, justice will have to come from a higher court—or even from Capitol Hill.

Congress, as it turns out, has got the matter in its sights. It is considering H.R. 77, a bill called the “Free Competition in Currency Act” sponsored by Rep. Paul Broun (R., Ga.). It is a radical measure that brings to our laws the ideas of Friedrich Hayek, the Nobel-laureate economist who came to favor the denationalization of money.

H.R. 77 would end the legal-tender laws, repeal the provisions of the federal criminal code used against Mr. von NotHaus and nullify “any previous convictions.” The website govtrack.us reckons that its chances of passage are zero.

Things can change, though. “Audit the Fed,” which started out as a hyper-long shot, passed the House in September in a 333-92 vote. Monetary measures will have better chances in the 114th Congress. And the septuagenarian Mr. von NotHaus, who faces up to 22 years in prison, could yet appeal.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 30, 2014, 04:04:55 PM
#9
I have heard the argument put forth by Funtotry before.
This was supposed to be one reason why Bitcoin was safe as compared to Liberty Dollars.

An earlier FBI press release says this

Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money

Von NotHaus designed the Liberty Dollar currency in 1998 and the Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign ($); the words dollar, USA, Liberty, Trust in God (instead of In God We Trust); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coinage.


http://www.fbi.gov/charlotte/press-releases/2011/defendant-convicted-of-minting-his-own-currency


This is one reason why (Hopefully) the Government's treatment of Bitcoin should be different. Nobody is going to confuse bitcoins/satoshis with dollars/cents. If the question was over the monopoly of Congress over money, I am sure the government would have taken some action against cryptocurrencies in general. We wouldn't have the IRS clarifying bitcoin's tax status and the feds auctioning bitcoins ever so often.

Nobody confused Liberty Dollars with US Dollars either.

The "$" never appeared on any US dollar prior to its use by the Liberty Dollar (However it WAS used on Mexican Peso).
The FBI press release is pure BS.  These were not the arguments used in deciding the case, nor were they the reasons for the judges decision.

There were no victims of this "fraud" of minting a competing currency.  The government does not have a constitutional monopoly on money creation, cases like this are an attempt to fabricate it where it doesn't exist in the law.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1000
November 29, 2014, 03:51:22 AM
#8
I have heard the argument put forth by Funtotry before.
This was supposed to be one reason why Bitcoin was safe as compared to Liberty Dollars.

An earlier FBI press release says this

Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money

Von NotHaus designed the Liberty Dollar currency in 1998 and the Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign ($); the words dollar, USA, Liberty, Trust in God (instead of In God We Trust); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coinage.


http://www.fbi.gov/charlotte/press-releases/2011/defendant-convicted-of-minting-his-own-currency


This is one reason why (Hopefully) the Government's treatment of Bitcoin should be different. Nobody is going to confuse bitcoins/satoshis with dollars/cents. If the question was over the monopoly of Congress over money, I am sure the government would have taken some action against cryptocurrencies in general. We wouldn't have the IRS clarifying bitcoin's tax status and the feds auctioning bitcoins ever so often.

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 28, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
#7

That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target.  
Rather, it puts a target on every one of us.
I think the issue was more that he was creating something that people could potentially think are "real" dollars that were issued by the US government.

No.  

It is weird how people try to justify such things based on assumptions that the authorities couldn't make mistakes and wrongly convict the innocent in order to enrich themselves, their departments, and advance their careers.

What you are suggesting would in fact be the opposite of what it was that the accused did.  If you ever read anything of what he wrote, or saw any of the market facing materials, or heard anything he ever said about Liberty Dollars this would convince you of that fact that he could barely utter a sentence without describing how they were different from anything produced by the US Government.  
Any slightest confusion on that matter would be likely to be met with a stream of excited derision for how much better and different they were from anything produced by the US Government, possibly intermixed with some colorful profanity for making such a mistake.

There were exactly zero people that confused them and suffered from that problem.  THERE WERE NO VICTIMS of these "crimes".

The allegation was that they were too much like US quarters and US dimes.  If you accepted one of these by mistaking it for a US coin, you would be enriched, not defrauded, by having accepted fine silver rather than the base metals issued by the US Government.


Never before in the history of legal proceedings has anyone been accused of COUNTERFEITING MONEY WITH SOMETHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THE "REAL" MONEY.


This is a kangaroo court type ruling worthy of Jonathan Swift style satire.  Entirely insane.  Justice is dead.


This is purely the US Government seeking the seizure of assets, using a made up crime by blending multiple laws and artistically rearranging the parts of several bits of law into a new melange, to create a crime where none existed.
Then after seizing the assets, saddling the defendant with inadequate legal counsel who bungled the case so horribly that the prosecution won what should have been an impossible case for them.


To amplify this point, there are in fact folks that produce replicas of US CURRENCY in silver and gold.
http://www.greatamericancoincompany.com/c54/999-Pure-Silver-Replicas-c29.html
There is nothing illegal about doing this.
These are far closer to the coins produced by the US Government than anything produced by Bernard von NotHaus.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Ever wanted to run your own casino? PM me for info
November 27, 2014, 02:35:12 PM
#6

That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target. 
Rather, it puts a target on every one of us.
I think the issue was more that he was creating something that people could potentially think are "real" dollars that were issued by the US government.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 26, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
#5

That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target. 
Rather, it puts a target on every one of us.

There are bitcoin users outside of the US, where Fed cant do anything and I think, that is the majority.
Yes, law is fortunately still constrained by political geography.
sr. member
Activity: 728
Merit: 256
November 26, 2014, 06:09:38 AM
#4

That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target. 
Rather, it puts a target on every one of us.

There are bitcoin users outside of the US, where Fed cant do anything and I think, that is the majority.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 25, 2014, 05:18:02 PM
#3

That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target. 
Rather, it puts a target on every one of us.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
November 25, 2014, 03:03:24 PM
#2
http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1415649749.php

This is a travesty of justice and is a bad ruling for Bitcoin in USA

Within the judges ruling:

"Congress has been permitted “to create a money monopoly, with full powers to outlaw any and all competing
currencies . . . .”

" and if anyone, individual or State, assumes to supplant the medium of exchange adopted by our Government,
or assumes to compete with the United States Government in this regard, a violation of these statutes would follow"

The sentencing hearing will be on December 2nd.
This is the first political prisoner for alternative currency in the USA with not even any allegation of money laundering or any of the more esoteric legal arguments used, merely challenging the authority of the Fed in the issuing of an alternative currency to the US Dollar.


Edit:  I'm sure Bernard would appreciate any support from us.  I just spoke with him on the phone.  It is not a good time.
It also further underscores the wisdom of Satoshi in remaining anonymous.


That is a huge miscarriage of justice to say the least. I wish him well.

Bitcoin kind of solves that issue by being p2p and decentralized. There are no entities to target. 
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 11, 2014, 01:29:08 PM
#1
http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1415649749.php

This is a travesty of justice and is a bad ruling for Bitcoin in USA

Within the judges ruling:

"Congress has been permitted “to create a money monopoly, with full powers to outlaw any and all competing
currencies . . . .”

" and if anyone, individual or State, assumes to supplant the medium of exchange adopted by our Government,
or assumes to compete with the United States Government in this regard, a violation of these statutes would follow"

The sentencing hearing will be on December 2nd.
This is the first political prisoner for alternative currency in the USA with not even any allegation of money laundering or any of the more esoteric legal arguments used, merely challenging the authority of the Fed in the issuing of an alternative currency to the US Dollar.


Edit:  I'm sure Bernard would appreciate any support from us.  I just spoke with him on the phone.  It is not a good time.
It also further underscores the wisdom of Satoshi in remaining anonymous.
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