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Topic: Lightning Network (Read 404 times)

legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
September 22, 2018, 08:30:26 AM
#32
While this is a way to 'take the fees' from the miners

Since someone bumped this thread, it's worth pointing out that any "fees" earned from LN are probably going to be tiny in comparison to the kind of fees miners earn.  It's just not on the same scale.  And, as others have already pointed out, there will still be on-chain fees being collected with people opening and closing channels.
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
September 22, 2018, 07:48:20 AM
#31
In fact, LN requires transactions on the chain and scale on the best performing chain. It is not PoS so stop comparing LN with it. The churn rate is the annual percentage at which the customer stopped subscribing to the service. But basically once the Cartels Bank has run Bitcoin core Miners out of business and they are the only ones running asics to keep the chain virtually moving. Since they can move it for free, they will continue to consolidate their domination of Bitcoin Core.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
September 08, 2018, 02:41:34 AM
#30
If Bitcoin can be compared to cash transactions, the Lightning Network is analogous to an online system of decentralized credit: traders exchange IOUs, keep running tabs on their expenses, and only use the blockchain when their interaction concludes. That’s a big difference from the sign-and-send procedure for an ordinary, on-chain transaction. More to the point, the Lightning Network requires active involvement from all involved. Each party needs to be online at the same time; you can’t just post a QR code on your website to ask for tips. A successful Lightning transaction requires choosing an optimal payment path from among thousands of intermediaries, and—since nodes are constantly flickering on and off—that path needs to be recalculated each time.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
September 06, 2018, 07:38:57 AM
#29
Its great i just registered!
newbie
Activity: 154
Merit: 0
September 06, 2018, 07:24:36 AM
#28
Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions.Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions.
newbie
Activity: 80
Merit: 0
July 07, 2018, 03:22:29 AM
#27

I think everything has been arranged before. We should follow the general rule of the market. Births are dead.
newbie
Activity: 112
Merit: 0
May 30, 2018, 06:37:37 AM
#26
i disagree to that saying, fees at first place should never be there, who's taking from who?
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
May 30, 2018, 02:52:00 AM
#25
Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees.
sr. member
Activity: 387
Merit: 250
Presale is live!
May 10, 2018, 07:38:33 AM
#24
We need the lightening network to go into full effect if we ever have any hope of bitcoin and cryptocurrencis becoming the major form of currencies in the future because right now we have to deal with slow transaction times and high fees when transaction volumes increase which is not a viable option for day to day transactions so we need that lightening network.
jr. member
Activity: 58
Merit: 12
May 09, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
#23
I like the discussion and thanks for the thoughts.  For myself, this isn't a BCH versus BTC.  I am not against the goals of Lightning network.

Long term, just thinking what the knock-off effects of adoption on the lightning network versus actual BTC takes place.  Some monte carlo simulations could be built to better assess what the outcomes could be.

My thought this morning was that if there was a way to incorporate sidechain mining into the lightning network model.  This may have provide the ability to decentralize the channels themselves and allow miners to continue to collect the fees.

Of course this would require some work, but if the payment channel issue already solved then the addition of minable side-chains may be plausible.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
May 09, 2018, 01:49:05 AM
#22
I wish all Bitcoin h0lders could earn from network transactions and fees to be honest. Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees. So many new holders would invest in Bitcoin, but of course Bitcoin now has lost it's currency for the people feel.

it already exists and it is called Proof of Stake and it is a flawed way of distributing coins in my opinion because it is basically saying the rich should get richer and do that by performing nothing. basically sitting around and increasing their wealth.
with bitcoin and it s Proof of Work they have to invest and work to get paid! that is a much better design.

Proof of Stake Flaw was fixed by zeitcoin, by moving to an Ultra Low Inflation rate of .0005% per year.
This removed your rich getting richer flaw.  Smiley
All Proof of Stake Coins, act as Full Nodes distributing the ledger and processing transactions by staking.

Bitcoin has yet to fix the ever increasing Proof of Work input costs require to run the network.
At some point, if the price of the coin decreases below production cost, the miners shut down and the network freezes.

Proof of Stake Energy Efficiently protects it from that scenario.

if I were creating grains of sand but 1 grain per year that can not be called "low inflation" your beloved useless coin has already billions of coins in circulation and then "slowed down" the creation of it. it is already inflated.
not to mention that it used to (to use your own words) waste energy and be mined using PoW when that billions of coins were being mined in a very short period of time (3-4 months).
your coin is screaming flawed and its price of 2 satoshi is proving that!


My coin price has been more stable than your coin , and your ignorance won't change that.
Also my coin has a large enough quantity to be used globally and not be priced out of normal people usage.
My coin still has a utility for micro payments, you know the utility your coin lost.

Proof of Work is a failed design, as many communities are starting to ban it because of it's insane energy drain.

Believe what you want, but if bitcoin core falls below $2000 at last count , it will be below production costs and then let's see what happens.

In 2020 , your PoW Miners take a massive hit, Half of their profits out the door.
But their input costs are only increasing.
http://www.bitcoinblockhalf.com/
Price has grown verses the US $.
Sept 2014, 1 zeitcoin = $.000001
May  2018, 1 zeitcoin = $.000122

So in comparison to the US $,  (which to be honest, does anyone really care about anything else, because people cash out to fiat not bitcoin)    

Zeitcoin's Price has increased 122X verses the US $, it has been an outstanding investment.  Smiley


* If someone brought at the lows and sold at the highs, their rate of return was much higher than 122X. *


FYI:
During the exact same time period
Bitcoin only increased 18.86X verses the US $ and ZEITCOIN increased 122X verses the US $.

ZEITCOIN OUTPERFORMED BITCOIN by a factor of over 6X.


* Here is a little brain teaser for you , if ZEITCOIN increases at the same speed as the last time period. *
1 zeitcoin = $0.014884     in May 2022   (That is ~1½ US penny)
1 zeitcoin = $1.815848     in May 2026  (~ $2 dollars)
1 zeitcoin = $221.5334     in May 2030  (over $200 dollars)
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1163
Where is my ring of blades...
May 09, 2018, 01:38:54 AM
#21
I wish all Bitcoin h0lders could earn from network transactions and fees to be honest. Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees. So many new holders would invest in Bitcoin, but of course Bitcoin now has lost it's currency for the people feel.

it already exists and it is called Proof of Stake and it is a flawed way of distributing coins in my opinion because it is basically saying the rich should get richer and do that by performing nothing. basically sitting around and increasing their wealth.
with bitcoin and it s Proof of Work they have to invest and work to get paid! that is a much better design.

Proof of Stake Flaw was fixed by zeitcoin, by moving to an Ultra Low Inflation rate of .0005% per year.
This removed your rich getting richer flaw.  Smiley
All Proof of Stake Coins, act as Full Nodes distributing the ledger and processing transactions by staking.

Bitcoin has yet to fix the ever increasing Proof of Work input costs require to run the network.
At some point, if the price of the coin decreases below production cost, the miners shut down and the network freezes.

Proof of Stake Energy Efficiently protects it from that scenario.

if I were creating grains of sand but 1 grain per year that can not be called "low inflation" your beloved useless coin has already billions of coins in circulation and then "slowed down" the creation of it. it is already inflated.
not to mention that it used to (to use your own words) waste energy and be mined using PoW when that billions of coins were being mined in a very short period of time (3-4 months).
your coin is screaming flawed and its price of 2 satoshi is proving that!
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
May 09, 2018, 01:26:23 AM
#20
I wish all Bitcoin h0lders could earn from network transactions and fees to be honest. Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees. So many new holders would invest in Bitcoin, but of course Bitcoin now has lost it's currency for the people feel.

it already exists and it is called Proof of Stake and it is a flawed way of distributing coins in my opinion because it is basically saying the rich should get richer and do that by performing nothing. basically sitting around and increasing their wealth.
with bitcoin and it s Proof of Work they have to invest and work to get paid! that is a much better design.

Proof of Stake Flaw was fixed by zeitcoin, by moving to an Ultra Low Inflation rate of .0005% per year.
This removed your rich getting richer flaw.  Smiley
All Proof of Stake Coins, act as Full Nodes distributing the ledger and processing transactions by staking.

Bitcoin has yet to fix the ever increasing Proof of Work input costs require to run the network.
At some point, if the price of the coin decreases below production cost, the miners shut down and the network freezes.

Proof of Stake Energy Efficiently protects it from that scenario.
newbie
Activity: 164
Merit: 0
May 09, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
#19
I disagree that LN is an attempt to take the fees from miners, as from my point of view LN will increase the total number of transactions, so miners could even have more profit.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1163
Where is my ring of blades...
May 09, 2018, 01:20:00 AM
#18
I wish all Bitcoin h0lders could earn from network transactions and fees to be honest. Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees. So many new holders would invest in Bitcoin, but of course Bitcoin now has lost it's currency for the people feel.

it already exists and it is called Proof of Stake and it is a flawed way of distributing coins in my opinion because it is basically saying the rich should get richer and do that by performing nothing. basically sitting around and increasing their wealth.
with bitcoin and it s Proof of Work they have to invest and work to get paid! that is a much better design.

I think without the updates the fees would have just killed off bitcoin. Especially when you are paying $60 dollars to send a dollar which is how bad it got at some points in summer. This is a very interesting perspective I have to admit. Wasn't satoshi original idea to have bitcoin as a means of payment though?

yes but you can never prevent attackers from attacking you. it is like owning a website and getting DDoS'ed. you can't prevent people from DDoSing you, all you can do is fight it. and fighting spam attacks against bitcoin (which caused the huge fee rise) is done by having a limited block size and a fee market.
it is a war, no matter what you do, they will find a way to attack you. so you always need to continue fighting.
jr. member
Activity: 97
Merit: 2
May 09, 2018, 01:18:22 AM
#17
Does anyone else see the Lightning Network as a way for large BTC holders to become like banks and get the fees that were designed to go to the miners?  The layers sure sound like the intermediaries that Satoshi invented Bitcoin to thwart.  Long term, miners are needed to continue to secure the system and if there is no incentive or fees then it will be very easy for someone to 51%.

There are many layers or intermediary already in place, but this seems to be implemented by the core team itself.  This is what concerns me.

The more I think about it, this may be one of the reasons why large institutions and family offices are making very very large purchases of BTC.  I have had requests for 100k - 500k BTC from credible sources.

I do realize this competition of interests was built into the Bitcoin design.  Early adopters would have the advantage and miner reward diminishes.  This is when fees of the system are supposed to support mining.  If the core implements an automatic way for large BTC owners to essentially POS then it will be self defeating.  They may lower security for the entire system even though they may have good intentions.

There is also a regulatory issue. Why do you think ETH is dragging their feet on POS?  If the core team implements a system that provides a reward for payment channels they have now, most likely, pushed BTC into security terroritory.  And that is right where the Institutions would want it.  It would limit access. Thoughts?

Edit: this isn’t a plug for BCH.  I am just thinking long term about the viability of mining which is the backbone of Bitcoin.

I think without the updates the fees would have just killed off bitcoin. Especially when you are paying $60 dollars to send a dollar which is how bad it got at some points in summer. This is a very interesting perspective I have to admit. Wasn't satoshi original idea to have bitcoin as a means of payment though?
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1023
Oikos.cash | Decentralized Finance on Tron
May 09, 2018, 01:14:47 AM
#16
I wish all Bitcoin h0lders could earn from network transactions and fees to be honest. Miners and big whales are the ones that benefit most from holding Bitcoin. Can you imagine if there was this idea that if we held Bitcoin we would earn a portion of the network transactions we would all benefit from the fees. So many new holders would invest in Bitcoin, but of course Bitcoin now has lost it's currency for the people feel.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
May 09, 2018, 01:11:35 AM
#15
No. instead Lightning Network will increase the revenue of miners even more!

basically for two simple reasons. first is as others said above, the on-chain transactions will still happen. in fact LN requires on-chain transactions and on-chain scaling to work best.
and second is because there is nothing stopping miners who already process transactions to run a LN node on top of their setup and gather small LN fees on top of what they are earning from mining! (the increased revenue part).


Ok,
Lets remove the bitcoin reward since it is dropping every 4 years anyway.

Bitcoin Core Miner makes $1 per transaction , lets say he has 2000 transactions per block , so he make $2000 per block.

LN activates and 1500 of those transactions are lost to LN. Cutting the Bitcoin Miner down to $500 per block.

LN Hub require additional resources especially extra bandwidth and DDOS protections, so that adds to the miner monthly costs.

But here is a little tidbit, LN hubs will require additional licenses at the low end a money transmitter license at the high end and most likely a Bank License,
either way LN Hubs will be forced to comply with the US AML/KYC regulations.
So lets say the miner was actually able to satisfy those requirements at no additional costs (which to be honest, they won't be able to afford a banking license).

They activate their LN Hub, but none of the other hubs will make channels with them, so they don't make any money from LN fees.
The Reason is the Big Players like Banking Cartels have purchased a large % of Bitcoin Core's coins, and are creating channels with other banks owned LN hubs.  Tongue
(Centralization at work)

So the Bitcoin Core Miner is no longer able to afford to run his warehouse full of energy sucking asics and goes out of business.

The Banking Cartels open a small asics operation, which they run at a loss, but using their profits from LN fees, it is essentially free for them to run it.

The above is the basic plan of how the Banking Cartels will Dominate Bitcoin Core using LN. Wink


member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
May 09, 2018, 12:52:10 AM
#14

And you are clueless to how LN works.

Those 1000txs Offchain will not pay you a penny unless someone cashes out at the end onchain.
But up that number to millions/billions of transactions offchain that you never see a penny for.


How will people avoid channel churn?

Do you mean?
The Churn Rate is the annual percentage rate at which customers stop subscribing to a service.

In Answer to your question read the post right below this one.
But Basically once the Banking Cartels have run the Bitcoin Core Miners out of business and they are the only ones running asics to keep the chain barely moving.
They Will Jack up the ONCHAIN Fees to the point , you can't afford to move the coins and they will seize it as dust or you spend it all in their LN network to avoid the onchain fee.
Since they can move it for free, they will continue consolidating their dominance of Bitcoin Core.  Tongue
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 2
May 07, 2018, 11:45:49 PM
#13

And you are clueless to how LN works.

Those 1000txs Offchain will not pay you a penny unless someone cashes out at the end onchain.
But up that number to millions/billions of transactions offchain that you never see a penny for.


How will people avoid channel churn?
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