Lightning network | Bitcointalksearch.org

internetional

legendary

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Quote from: Zoomic on July 31, 2023, 03:43:58 AM

I will however want to read about the "Not your node, note your coin" phrase. I believe it shouldn't apply in LN because it is only your coin when it runs on the blockchain and not on a second layer.

Can you “withdraw” your money from your channel without anyone’s permission while using your on node? Yes. It means “Your node, your coin”. An LN coin is still yours to the same extent as a coin at your own PKH.

The question about “Not your node, not your coin” is interesting. Muun who runs node for its users pretends to give them full control over funds come from the LN.

Accardo

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I've read not your node not your coin, but the first response explained it clearly. Regarding services like watchtower, backing up channel funds, is a good alternative to watchtower, it'll help close the channel if the node fails or without the assistance of the third party, thereby saving the remaining SATs in the channel. If our funds depended on the hands of the person in charge of the node, the news would have been all over the market, for people to stay clear from connecting to different nodes in the network.

Zoomic

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 26, 2023, 11:17:13 AM

Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin?

Yes. When using lightning in Electrum, you're actually running a lightning node, therefore it's self-custody. This presentation shows briefly how it works. The tl;dr is that you're not forfeiting the ownership of your coins to some third party, but due to the nature of lightning, the user should pay a watchtower to watch for cheating attempts, unless they're willing to watch it themselves which requires to run the software non-stop.

Without looking at it from the deeper side, Electrum wallet is already a non custodial wallet. So, anything that runs on it is safe as your coin because you have the key. What I understood from Op is that he was inclining more to the privacy aspect and advantages of running an independent lightning node.

I will however want to read about the "Not your node, note your coin" phrase. I believe it shouldn't apply in LN because it is only your coin when it runs on the blockchain and not on a second layer.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: internetional on July 28, 2023, 01:03:13 PM

Quote from: n0nce on July 27, 2023, 06:15:20 PM

If you want to run a Lightning node independent from watchtowers, you need some kind of software to run 'non-stop' to check the blockchain for cheating attempts.
Typically, that is something like Core Lightning, running as a daemon, similar to Bitcoin Core.

I always thought it should be enough for full security to start a node once a week and check whether another sides of your channels tried to publish fake statement. Because you have 2 weeks to publish a true one. Am I wrong? Why do we need an always running daemon?

It depends. It's not necessarily 2 weeks; I'm not sure about current default values for different Lightning implementations, but it's definitely possible that you have different lock times set up.
Also, your channel partners may think your node is having reliability issues if it's down most of the time, as they typically want to use their channels for routing. As a consequence, they may choose to try closing the channel. If your node does not wake up in time for a cooperative close, that becomes a force close which costs both sides more sats.

All that is to say that Lightning is supposed to be used as an interactive, 'always-on' system where nodes can reach their channel partners at any (or most of the) time.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Good point, but i never said it's bad idea to run full node.

I didn't mean to imply that.

Just saying it can make sense to run a full node as well as light wallets.

internetional

legendary

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Quote from: n0nce on July 27, 2023, 06:15:20 PM

If you want to run a Lightning node independent from watchtowers, you need some kind of software to run 'non-stop' to check the blockchain for cheating attempts.
Typically, that is something like Core Lightning, running as a daemon, similar to Bitcoin Core.

I always thought it should be enough for full security to start a node once a week and check whether another sides of your channels tried to publish fake statement. Because you have 2 weeks to publish a true one. Am I wrong? Why do we need an always running daemon?

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: ?? on ??

That's true, but people who use Electrum (or other lightweight LN wallet) is unlikely to run BTC full node and either Electrum server/LN node.

I've got to disagree. It's actually quite a good idea to run one full Bitcoin node somewhere and connect to it from your SPV wallets; be it on PCs, phones; anywhere you are, you can connect to that full node over Tor and get a big improvement in privacy.

What is true though is that if you have such a box running already, it does make sense to install Lightning on that instead of using LN through Electrum, which would require you to rely on watchtowers and whatnot.

Also, even if you have a real full, self-custodial, always-on LN node, it may make sense to also have a light or even custodial mobile Lightning wallet for small expenses.

LoyceV

legendary

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 28, 2023, 02:36:19 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on July 28, 2023, 02:25:03 AM

It's a trade-off between convenience and risks, and with LN, I choose convenience. But I wouldn't risk more than (say) $50.

Yeah, you can't do much in lightning with just $50. I mean, if you open a $50 worth channel with someone, chances are, they aren't big in liquidity. So you're probably going to have lots of failures. So questionable convenience. Tongue

(also, $50 are easily spendable, you'll quickly need another channel)

Good point, opening small channels is problematic. Small custodial amounts work fine.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: ABCbits on July 27, 2023, 05:02:24 AM

By "run the software non-stop", do you mean "run Electrum non-stop"? If so, it doesn't seem very reliable since Electrum (the wallet software) still need to rely on Electrum server.

Correct, but if you're connecting it to your full node, then I'm supposing you won't have any reliability issues.

Quote from: LoyceV on July 28, 2023, 02:25:03 AM

It's a trade-off between convenience and risks, and with LN, I choose convenience. But I wouldn't risk more than (say) $50.

Yeah, you can't do much in lightning with just $50. I mean, if you open a $50 worth channel with someone, chances are, they aren't big in liquidity. So you're probably going to have lots of failures. So questionable convenience. Tongue

(also, $50 are easily spendable, you'll quickly need another channel)

LoyceV

legendary

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Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

I have read before that not your ~~node~~ key not your coin.

Now it's correct Wink

But do you really mind for small amounts? It's a trade-off between convenience and risks, and with LN, I choose convenience. But I wouldn't risk more than (say) $50.

Quote

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

Short answer: yes.
But I never went through the trouble of actually testing if I can recover LN funds from Electrum just from the private key, without cooperation from the other end. It seems like much more work (and thus risk) than using a custodial wallet. Or just trusting Electrum does what it should do.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: ABCbits on July 27, 2023, 05:02:24 AM

By "run the software non-stop", do you mean "run Electrum non-stop"? If so, it doesn't seem very reliable since Electrum (the wallet software) still need to rely on Electrum server.

If you want to run a Lightning node independent from watchtowers, you need some kind of software to run 'non-stop' to check the blockchain for cheating attempts.
Typically, that is something like Core Lightning, running as a daemon, similar to Bitcoin Core. In fact, Bitcoin Core is a requirement for Core Lightning.

My up-to-date install guide is found here:
[Guide] FULL NODE OpenSUSE 15.3: bitcoind + electrs + c-lightning + RTL

ABCbits

legendary

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Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

I have read before that not your node not your coin.

This is definitely wrong. It's like saying if you don't run Bitcoin Core (or other full node software), that means it's not your coin.

Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

As other user said, yes. The real concern is, if you don't run your own node, you need to rely on other node which as watchtower to prevent cheating (e.g. broadcast earlier state of LN channel). Although if you only send BTC through LN, no need to worry about this concern.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 26, 2023, 11:17:13 AM

Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin?

Yes. When using lightning in Electrum, you're actually running a lightning node, therefore it's self-custody. This presentation shows briefly how it works. The tl;dr is that you're not forfeiting the ownership of your coins to some third party, but due to the nature of lightning, the user should pay a watchtower to watch for cheating attempts, unless they're willing to watch it themselves which requires to run the software non-stop.

By "run the software non-stop", do you mean "run Electrum non-stop"? If so, it doesn't seem very reliable since Electrum (the wallet software) still need to rely on Electrum server.

SquirrelJulietGarden

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Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

By doing this with Electrum wallet, you still own your coin because you have its mnemonic seed, you control your coin, not Lightning network channel and node.
If you only use it for receiving, no worry because you don't lose anything by waiting for a transaction from others.

Running a node with Lightning Network is not profitable and you should only do this if you are about your privacy, and definitely don't care about profit or cost.

Bitcoin Lightning Network walkthrough.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin?

Yes. When using lightning in Electrum, you're actually running a lightning node, therefore it's self-custody. This presentation shows briefly how it works. The tl;dr is that you're not forfeiting the ownership of your coins to some third party, but due to the nature of lightning, the user should pay a watchtower to watch for cheating attempts, unless they're willing to watch it themselves which requires to run the software non-stop.

Findingnemo

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Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

If you are using a third party lightning network still the coins are yours and there is no security threats for not running your own lightning network the only issues are related to privacy. You can also decide which node you want to use run from the list and also can make use of Lightning Network explorer.

Huppercase

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Quote from: _act_ on July 26, 2023, 05:34:53 AM

There are wallets that are custodial which people can use for lightning network. Everything the person needs is to download the wallet do the backup and generate an invoice to receive payment.

I have read before that not your node not your coin. There are ways you can be able to run your own lightning node to use lightning payment. Connecting to other nodes and allow people to open channels with you. This will help you in having privacy.

On Electrum wallet, you do not need to have your own node but open a channel directly. It is not custodial lightning that you will just download a wallet, do backup and generate invoice. You have to open a channel. The channels that depend on lightning nodes just like light client wallets depend on full nodes.

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

You need to understand that there are wallets that are custodial and Non-custodial wallets. Basically, from the inception of Bitcoin wallet, if you are not using a Non-custodial wallet, you don't own the bitcoin because you don't have the keys and using any feature like Lightening network is the same as not your node, not your coin as the custodial companies run everything for you from your private keys and the node you are using to route payments.

ELectrum wallet is a non-custodial wallet, it doesn't have the narrative of not your coin, not your node but there are things you could mix up when you don't run your own node while using electrum wallet most especially how you interact with the node to route your payment, you have to depend on a third party every time to route your payments.

This table is a self explanatory of the relationship between Custodial wallet and Non-custodial wallet, running a full node and also depending on a third party node to route a payment. If you want to enjoyed LN to the fullest, the best is to run your own node, you can still use Electrum wallet if you chosed to but you will have to run a node independently

_act_

legendary

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Lightning network is good with small amount of BTC

There are wallets that are custodial which people can use for lightning network. Everything the person needs is to download the wallet do the backup and generate an invoice to receive payment.

I have read before that not your node not your coin. There are ways you can be able to run your own lightning node to use lightning payment. Connecting to other nodes and allow people to open channels with you. This will help you in having privacy.

On Electrum wallet, you do not need to have your own node but open a channel directly. It is not custodial lightning that you will just download a wallet, do backup and generate invoice. You have to open a channel. The channels that depend on lightning nodes just like light client wallets depend on full nodes.

If I am using Electrum for lightning payment, is it your coin? The reason I asked is because they said not your node not your coin. I want to know how true it is.

Topic: Lightning network (Read 314 times)