Lightning Network Discussion Thread - page 10.

suzanne5223

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 13, 2018, 06:02:46 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 13, 2018, 12:59:21 AM

for an average user of "Bitcoin as a payments tool", it would take more effort, time, and more eading.

Well, Bitcoin is a cultural change as well as a different type of money. I've learnt things I perhaps otherwise wouldn't so that I can be more effective using Bitcoin, there's no reason not to expect that others will be similarly motivated. Plus, complete lightning nodes are available for sale already

You're right but there's is something I don't understand concern what you said about the complete lightning nodes to be available for sale and the Casa nodes which was meant for showcasing the Lightning network to big exchanges. Does all this mean that the lightning network is no longer beta testing?

Rath_

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LND v0.5 beta has just been announced. This version mostly consists of many small improvements. However, there are a few things worth taking look at. Autopilot can now create unadvertised channels which do not take part in payment routing. Another great thing is that channels which are being closed are excluded from routing payments. The same applies if one of the node's peers is offline.

DooMAD

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

Quote from: Samarkand on September 14, 2018, 03:29:16 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 12, 2018, 03:18:51 PM

...
As stated elsewhere in the thread, eltoo simplifies the situation, and there's probably more room for improvement too.
...

I did some reading regarding eltoo after you pointed out eltoo the last time.
However, my impression was that eltoo needs certain additions to the Bitcoin protocol
that haven´t been implemented so far.

https://www.bitcoinlightning.com/eltoo-protocol/

Quote

The Eltoo protocol is gaining steam among LN advocates. To institute Eltoo, it will be required to add the SIGHASH flag and SIGHASH_NOINPUT to the Bitcoin protocol.

Yes, that requires a softfork. But then so does Schnorr Sigs, so there will probably end up being a few new features bundled together in the next softfork, just to save having more than one. The assumption is that this will be far less controversial than the previous softfork, as most of the would-be-opponents have forked away and care more about their other chains now.

Samarkand

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 13, 2018, 12:59:21 AM

...
For Bitcoin nerds like us, yes we can do it, although I have not found any motivation to set up a node and join the Lightning Network yet. But for an average user of "Bitcoin as a payments tool", it would take more effort, time, and more eading.

This was exactly my concern. Many people won´t bother with using an Arduino and instead will
rely on their credit card and let VISA handle the "server stuff" and the "technical details".

Of course it would be trivial for more tech-savvy people, but the average citizen probably
has to be incentivized to use the LN in another way.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 12, 2018, 03:18:51 PM

...
As stated elsewhere in the thread, eltoo simplifies the situation, and there's probably more room for improvement too.
...

I did some reading regarding eltoo after you pointed out eltoo the last time.
However, my impression was that eltoo needs certain additions to the Bitcoin protocol
that haven´t been implemented so far.

https://www.bitcoinlightning.com/eltoo-protocol/

Quote

The Eltoo protocol is gaining steam among LN advocates. To institute Eltoo, it will be required to add the SIGHASH flag and SIGHASH_NOINPUT to the Bitcoin protocol.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 13, 2018, 12:59:21 AM

for an average user of "Bitcoin as a payments tool", it would take more effort, time, and more eading.

Well, Bitcoin is a cultural change as well as a different type of money. I've learnt things I perhaps otherwise wouldn't so that I can be more effective using Bitcoin, there's no reason not to expect that others will be similarly motivated. Plus, complete lightning nodes are available for sale already

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 12, 2018, 03:18:51 PM

Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2018, 12:52:23 PM

Is there a comprehensive list of solutions that mitigate
this "you always have to be online" problem if you want full
control of your funds in open payment channels?

Run your own lightning node 24/7/365. It's not very demanding, an Arduino or Raspberry Pi could do it (in fact, your internet router could probably do it, which is kinda convenient as being online 24/7/365 is what a router's designed for)

For Bitcoin nerds like us, yes we can do it, although I have not found any motivation to set up a node and join the Lightning Network yet. But for an average user of "Bitcoin as a payments tool", it would take more effort, time, and more eading.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2018, 12:52:23 PM

Is there a comprehensive list of solutions that mitigate
this "you always have to be online" problem if you want full
control of your funds in open payment channels?

Run your own lightning node 24/7/365. It's not very demanding, an Arduino or Raspberry Pi could do it (in fact, your internet router could probably do it, which is kinda convenient as being online 24/7/365 is what a router's designed for)

Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2018, 12:52:23 PM

This just seems like a huge barrier to entry for newcomers, because many average
persons are neither willing nor able to run LN-related software 24/7. If the solution
is a centralized service that watches your open LN channels, there are obviously
several disadvantages inherent to a centralized solution.

Well, watchtowers aren't even an option yet, the code for the protocol doesn't exist AFAIK. As stated elsewhere in the thread, eltoo simplifies the situation, and there's probably more room for improvement too.

I personally think that having a small server running out of your house will slowly become a cultural norm, as lightning nodes are certainly not the only reason something like that is useful.

Rath_

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Eclair wallet for Android now supports channel backup! Channel data is encrypted and optionally uploaded to Google Drive which makes it easy for an average user to recover it when needed.

Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2018, 12:52:23 PM

Is there a comprehensive list of solutions that mitigate
this "you always have to be online" problem if you want full
control of your funds in open payment channels?

The only thing I can think of right now are watchtowers which some people consider as a security threat. Keep in mind that if the other party attempts to close the channel forcefully when you are offline, it won't happen immediately. The locktime is negotiated always when the channel is founded. Usually, it is about 144 blocks (1 day). Running a Lightning Network node isn't as demanding as Bitcoin Core instance. Thanks to neutrino you don't have to download much data.

Samarkand

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Quote from: Rath_ on September 11, 2018, 11:32:01 AM

...
Both parties have the same level of control as long as they are online - you can get your coins back any time you want except when the other party is offline.
...

Is there a comprehensive list of solutions that mitigate
this "you always have to be online" problem if you want full
control of your funds in open payment channels?

This just seems like a huge barrier to entry for newcomers, because many average
persons are neither willing nor able to run LN-related software 24/7. If the solution
is a centralized service that watches your open LN channels, there are obviously
several disadvantages inherent to a centralized solution.

DooMAD

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 12, 2018, 12:58:36 AM

I know, those questions were asked rhetorically. Because there are some people in this forum that I cannot understand why they would resort to twisting the facts to make a criticism. Is it pride? Perhaps tribalism?

Some people just go full on tin-foil-hat sometimes. They see people moving forward together and assume it has to be a conspiracy, rather than simply taking a course of action which is beneficial for the group as a whole. Or, if they aren't deluded, they're just malicious. One or the other. The good news is that it won't slow our progress and few people are buying into the FUD. Just ignore them.

Wind_FURY

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I know, those questions were asked rhetorically. Because there are some people in this forum that I cannot understand why they would resort to twisting the facts to make a criticism. Is it pride? Perhaps tribalism?

Rath_

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 11, 2018, 02:38:58 AM

But are Lightning nodes = banks? Do the users surrender all control of their Bitcoins to open a channel? Is there a fractional reserve?

There is no fractional reserve on the Lightning Network. Opening a channel means locking up bitcoins in a multi-signature address. Both parties have the same level of control as long as they are online - you can get your coins back any time you want except when the other party is offline. Anyone can set up a Lightning Network node so even if banks attempted to hijack the network, it would be possible to exclude their nodes from routing your payment.

Wind_FURY

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This post was made by franky1 from another topic. I am bringing this in here to discuss and debate. I will ask him to come here if he wants to discuss.

Quote

remember the gold era. people stopped swapping gold and locked it into vaults/banks/fortknox(LN factories) and traded unconfirmed receipts of proof with each other until one side no longer had value. then the winner... became those that were the vaults

Before we continue, can you explain "why" the vaults became the winner, and how that relates to the Lightning Network?

Quote

if you read LN's 2018 concept you will see,, LN factories/watchtowers = third party= banks

But are Lightning nodes = banks? Do the users surrender all control of their Bitcoins to open a channel? Is there a fractional reserve?

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: OddEvenBets.com on September 10, 2018, 05:03:56 AM

Can I install LN node and daemon on Ubuntu 14.04?
I try but cannot compile..

Code:

The 1990s are calling: use ./configure!
The 1990s are calling: use ./configure!
make: *** [ccan/config.h] Error 1

install automake, then do ./configure && make

OddEvenBets.com

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Can I install LN node and daemon on Ubuntu 14.04?
I try but cannot compile..

Code:

The 1990s are calling: use ./configure!
The 1990s are calling: use ./configure!
make: *** [ccan/config.h] Error 1

Rath_

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Quote from: JayJuanGee on September 05, 2018, 01:29:06 AM

A reason that I responded to Flatulenters's earlier post with my question was because I am enthralled by the idea of a kind of plug and play user experience - even though I understand that command line might give a bit more control.

Perhaps I am waiting for a set up that is nearly as easy as setting up a Trezor...? hahahaha... Wishful thinking, perhaps?

Actually, we are not that far from that! There are still a few problems to solve (e.g. receiving money if one's node is offline) but it is a matter of time before someone releases a small device similar to TREZOR capable of running a Lightning Network node. I have found an interesting tutorial on making your own portable Lightning Network node. It still requires some technical knowledge but as you can see we are getting closer to the thing described by you.

By the way, TREZOR T has got a micro-SD slot so it might have some LN related features in the future.

JayJuanGee

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Quote from: Rath_ on September 05, 2018, 12:13:21 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on September 04, 2018, 07:03:54 PM

Of course, the company itself is going to say nice things, but how can we be assured that we are NOT screwed over in the future after we have set up the device and then later realize that our BTC ended up getting stolen?

If you are really concerned about this (and you should be) then consider buying Raspberry Pi with an external harddrive. You can use RaspiBlitz. It's quite easy to install. Here you can view the installation instructions and there is even a list of hardware which you will need. The cost is 120 euro (including a touchscreen!) which is about 150 dollars. Half the cost for a self-made and open source device. The only flaw is that you might not like using the command line all the time.

Hey BitCryptex... thanks for the description of another option.

A reason that I responded to Flatulenters's earlier post with my question was because I am enthralled by the idea of a kind of plug and play user experience - even though I understand that command line might give a bit more control.

Perhaps I am waiting for a set up that is nearly as easy as setting up a Trezor...? hahahaha... Wishful thinking, perhaps?

Rath_

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Quote from: JayJuanGee on September 04, 2018, 07:03:54 PM

Of course, the company itself is going to say nice things, but how can we be assured that we are NOT screwed over in the future after we have set up the device and then later realize that our BTC ended up getting stolen?

If you are really concerned about this (and you should be) then consider buying Raspberry Pi with an external harddrive. You can use RaspiBlitz. It's quite easy to install. Here you can view the installation instructions and there is even a list of hardware which you will need. The cost is 120 euro (including a touchscreen!) which is about 150 dollars. Half the cost for a self-made and open source device. The only flaw is that you might not like using the command line all the time.

Flatulenters

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Quote from: JayJuanGee on September 04, 2018, 07:03:54 PM

Quote from: Flatulenters on September 04, 2018, 06:55:34 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2018, 09:58:10 PM

It would be pretty darn nice to have a hardware lightning channel that could be bought, plugged in, connected, and loaded with 1/10 BTC.

there is one now, its called casa node

https://keys.casa/lightning-bitcoin-node/

Where would be the place to look at relatively objective reviews about such a device? Of course, the company itself is going to say nice things, but how can we be assured that we are NOT screwed over in the future after we have set up the device and then later realize that our BTC ended up getting stolen?

No reviews yet as they just starting to accept pre orders. first shipments will be in ocktober. Yeah, there will always be a risk using any hardware/software built by a 3d party.

JayJuanGee

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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"

Quote from: Flatulenters on September 04, 2018, 06:55:34 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2018, 09:58:10 PM

It would be pretty darn nice to have a hardware lightning channel that could be bought, plugged in, connected, and loaded with 1/10 BTC.

there is one now, its called casa node

https://keys.casa/lightning-bitcoin-node/

Where would be the place to look at relatively objective reviews about such a device? Of course, the company itself is going to say nice things, but how can we be assured that we are NOT screwed over in the future after we have set up the device and then later realize that our BTC ended up getting stolen?

Topic: Lightning Network Discussion Thread - page 10. (Read 29772 times)