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Topic: Live debate tonight 7PM GMT - Gavin Andresen will be there (Read 3648 times)

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
Depends on the point of view. From my point of view, in the world of open source, the mainline client/fork is the elected official, and users are the voters.
Every user or group of users can become/create an elected official by creating a fork of his/their own, and other people can vote for the official by using forked version of software.

Saying that using or not using is equivalent to a vote is far fetched.   It is not a vote.

If you are using it, then you are supporting it. You are trusting it. You are placing your trust and your life in the hands of the software you are using, the same as you do with elected officials.
And there are different choices: Litecoin is one of them. NFTF fork is also a choice (however differences between mainline fork and NFTF are practically negligible).

Sounds like a vote to me.

It is not a vote because the result of a vote is supposed to induce a decision that will concern all participants.   It might sound trivial to remind this, but when Obama was elected, people who voted for Mitt Romney did not gather in a part of the USA to make a separate state.

Also, a vote is basically a question that is asked to you, and your answer is taken into account with the answers of others.  When you download a software, or when you just use it, you don't have to tell anybody.   People might care about you using it, and your choice might in the end support the developers in some way, but there is no accurate accounting of the number of users and it does not directly affect the decisions of developers.   Really, it has very little to do with what a vote actually is.   It might look like it, but it's more of a metaphor than anything else.
 

Sure, there are some differences, but it still is good enough for me.
Despite that, it may work even better than standard democracy.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
Depends on the point of view. From my point of view, in the world of open source, the mainline client/fork is the elected official, and users are the voters.
Every user or group of users can become/create an elected official by creating a fork of his/their own, and other people can vote for the official by using forked version of software.

Saying that using or not using is equivalent to a vote is far fetched.   It is not a vote.

If you are using it, then you are supporting it. You are trusting it. You are placing your trust and your life in the hands of the software you are using, the same as you do with elected officials.
And there are different choices: Litecoin is one of them. NFTF fork is also a choice (however differences between mainline fork and NFTF are practically negligible).

Sounds like a vote to me.

It is not a vote because the result of a vote is supposed to induce a decision that will concern all participants.   It might sound trivial to remind this, but when Obama was elected, people who voted for Mitt Romney did not gather in a part of the USA to make a separate state.

Also, a vote is basically a question that is asked to you, and your answer is taken into account with the answers of others.  When you download a software, or when you just use it, you don't have to tell anybody.   People might care about you using it, and your choice might in the end support the developers in some way, but there is no accurate accounting of the number of users and it does not directly affect the decisions of developers.   Really, it has very little to do with what a vote actually is.   It might look like it, but it's more of a metaphor than anything else.
 
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
Depends on the point of view. From my point of view, in the world of open source, the mainline client/fork is the elected official, and users are the voters.
Every user or group of users can become/create an elected official by creating a fork of his/their own, and other people can vote for the official by using forked version of software.

Saying that using or not using is equivalent to a vote is far fetched.   It is not a vote.

If you are using it, then you are supporting it. You are trusting it. You are placing your trust and your life in the hands of the software you are using, the same as you do with elected officials.
And there are different choices: Litecoin is one of them. NFTF fork is also a choice (however differences between mainline fork and NFTF are practically negligible).

Sounds like a vote to me.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
What good is that if their minds or feelings are not completely their own, but dictated or ruled by their media or government.

Hoping for a society where people are smart, educated and have independent minds sure is a noble and fine social goal, but it has nothing to do with democracy.   You're just using this word to describe something that is not related.

Quote
What good is that if their minds or feelings are not completely their own, but dictated or ruled by their media or government. I'n political decisions that they make.

See, that's why we disagree.  You now asks "What good is that if...", when I was arguing with your initial question "How can it be a democracy...".  I wasn't trying to discuss whether democracy is a good or a bad thing, I was talking about whether or not people not having independent minds changes anything to the nature of a democratic process.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
That's why there is  "Direct democracy" everbody should really demand and work for.

A and B are not necessarily a person or a government.  They can be a decision. Well you're just shifting the goal posts. We started of talking by me arguing that no reall democracy can exist without free and independent minds.

When millions of the masses are fed fascistic government propoganda information and projects, and people " believe" or "accept"  these "propaganda" Then no reall democracy is achieved because they havn't inspected that data themselves if it is true or not, in other words thir decision making is delt by the government, their minds their will, not their own.

You were talking about drone strikes.  There is nothing in democracy, even in a direct democracy, preventing a drone strike to be voted by the majority.
How so?

You can regret the outcome of a vote, but if you say it results from people being not independent or free, you basically say that they are stupid, ignorant and that you know better
.  No i'm saying that they are in a state of unknowingness, or willfull unknowingness, is that stupidity , yes, is it ignorant, well if you're unwilling to look or accept opposite data, i'd  say yes. Which you seem prone to do thank you .btw.  And anyway it does not change anything to the fact that the vote was democratic. I think you don't understand.

It's not because a democratic process results in decisions you disapprove that it's not a democratic process anymore
. Good point. But if there was a reall democracy why with hold people being able to vote on major issues. Like they do allow to do for example in Switzerland. Switzerland is a great example of Direct democracy.

Again, you wrote:

How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free.

Democracy has nothing to do with whether or not people minds are independent and free.
  Democracy is about giving an equal power of decision via vote to everyone.   What good is that if their minds or feelings are not completely their own, but dictated or ruled by their media or government. I'n political decisions that they make. That's what i mean when true democracy cannot exist without free and independent minds.


 It is not incompatible with people being dependent and not free.

I have no clue what you ment there.
 
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
Ok so your argument is because the way they vote is not the problem ( which i have shown is not right ) and i can't know what is in peoples minds ( why they vote a particular way. Which i have shown is, not; correct, again.) Results in it not being important wether it's democratic.

I don 't know if anybody can follow this inane logic.  Let me know.

The logic is very simple.  You wrote:

« How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free. »

The two points of my argument are straightforward:

1.  their vote is not the problem.  It's A problem if the vote induces poor decisions, but it is not THE problem of deciding whether the process was democratic, which was the problem suggested by your question ("How can it be a democracy").

2.  You don't know what's in peoples mind.   You talk about people minds being independent and free but that's an external judgement and you can't know for sure.  And no, if someone enters a supermarket, it's not necessarily because he's hungry.  He can have many other motives (like he works for someone and does his shopping).   Anyway fortunately, you don't have to analyse the motives of a vote to consider it valid.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Democracy as a political system is just a way of making totalitarianism superficially appear less evil.

If it's evil for a single individual to point a gun at someone and order him around, it's also evil when two people do it, when three people do it, and so on. There's no tipping point where you add one extra person to the group and all of a sudden "a mob" magically transforms into "society".

If you still have trouble seeing why majority rule is not a valid ethical justification remember that gang rape is applied democracy.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
That's why there is  "Direct democracy" everbody should really demand and work for.

A and B are not necessarily a person or a government.  They can be a decision.  You were talking about drone strikes.  There is nothing in democracy, even in a direct democracy, preventing a drone strike to be voted by the majority.

You can regret the outcome of a vote, but if you say it results from people being not independent or free, you basically say that they are stupid, ignorant and that you know better.  Which you seem prone to do, btw.  And anyway it does not change anything to the fact that the vote was democratic.

It's not because a democratic process results in decisions you disapprove that it's not a democratic process anymore.


Again, you wrote:

How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free.

Democracy has nothing to do with whether or not people minds are independent and free.   Democracy is about giving an equal power of decision via vote to everyone.  It is not incompatible with people being dependent and not free.

full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Oh it is very much of my concern. THAT is like saying i shouldn't  be concerned with why A voted for drone strikes, or voted for invasion of the middle east,  or voted for killing millions of citizens, by consent or support of his government.  You're saying i shouldn't be concerned with that except that he did vote.

God damn it.  "It's none of your concern" is an idiom.  Don't take it like that
. But the point is that's Exactly how you ment it.

You were saying something like "how can there be democracy if people are not independent and free?".

I say democracy consists in letting people contribute to decisions via vote
. That's why there is  "Direct democracy" everbody should really demand and work for.  Why they vote for A and not for B is not the problem.
It is still the factor why the corrupt governments in the United states is still in place. The "WHY", is really the key factor what it is all about.

 You can't know that anyway as you're not in their mind. Who said anything about being in peoples minds to now what they think, if i see someone going to the supermarket i don't need to be in his mind to know he's probably hungry.

 So it doesn't concern if you worry about this process being democratic.  That's what I meant.
Ok so your argument is because the way they vote is not the problem ( which i have shown is not right ) and i can't know what is in peoples minds ( why they vote a particular way. Which i have shown is, not; correct, again.) Results in it not being important wether it's democratic.

I don 't know if anybody can follow this inane logic.  Let me know.

Of course if the candidate you didn't vote for is elected, you can feel sorry and thus concerned, but that's an other matter.  You can feel concerned about the poor decisions made by your government, but those decisions do not change the democratic status of this government.

The very point of letting people vote is to accept their opinion without discussing it.  Otherwise we wouldn't vote, we would have eternal debates on internet forums.

Ok more inane ramblings and silly ideas, we wouldn't vote, if people were not allowed to have an opinion, without discussing it. You're just completely silly. And you're on staff.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
Oh it is very much of my concern. THAT is like saying i shouldn't  be concerned with why A voted for drone strikes, or voted for invasion of the middle east,  or voted for killing millions of citizens, by consent or support of his government.  You're saying i shouldn't be concerned with that except that he did vote.

God damn it.  "It's none of your concern" is an idiom.  Don't take it like that.

You were saying something like "how can there be democracy if people are not independent and free?".

I say democracy consists in letting people contribute to decisions via vote.  Why they vote for A and not for B is not the problem.   You can't know that anyway as you're not in their mind.  So it doesn't concern you if you worry about this process being democratic.  That's what I meant.

Of course if the candidate you didn't vote for is elected, you can feel sorry and thus concerned, but that's an other matter.  You can feel concerned about the poor decisions made by your government, but those decisions do not change the democratic status of this government.

The very point of letting people vote is to accept their opinion without discussing it.  Otherwise we wouldn't vote, we would have eternal debates on internet forums.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
What a silly person you are, so when a majority are led to believe or believe their government without questioning it, read daily newspapers and recite articles and look to them what to think and believe what their government tells them to think and believe I'm not supposed to think or say peoples minds are not independent? Who said any thing about judging?

It's just that your argument "real democracy can't exist if people are not independent and free" pretty much sound like what a communist would say to justify totalitarism.   Like you know better what's good for people.

 Yeh well  you see the funny thing is you're not countering that argument, you're just saying this sounds like this sounds like this = that.  Like i said.
You're just, well. Really silly.

I was trying to make you realize how unacceptable your argument sounds like.


Well you haven't. And you haven't proven that at all.

I was saying initially that you are not in people's mind
, I never said i did. tYou are.

so you should not question people's choice and vote.

Invalid because i never claimed to be part of your earlier "accusation".


  If A vote for X, you can't say his vote is worthless because A had not a "independent mind" and is not truly "free".
It is absolutely worthless if A is brainwashed into voting for death and destruction where peace or prosperity can be obtained.

It's like saying someone is too stupid to have the right to vote.
Under the influence of the government and the media maybe a is. .

The reasons why A voted for X are none of your concern.  He did vote for A and that's what matters.
[/b] Oh it is very much of my concern. THAT is like saying i shouldn't  be concerned with why A voted for drone strikes, or voted for invasion of the middle east,  or voted for killing millions of citizens, by consent or support of his government.  You're saying i shouldn't be concerned with that except that he did vote.
That is complete insanity.
And you on staff here.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
What a silly person you are, so when a majority are led to believe or believe their government without questioning it, read daily newspapers and recite articles and look to them what to think and believe what their government tells them to think and believe I'm not supposed to think or say peoples minds are not independent? Who said any thing about judging?

It's just that your argument "real democracy can't exist if people are not independent and free" pretty much sound like what a communist would say to justify totalitarism.   Like you know better what's good for people.

 Yeh well  you see the funny thing is you're not countering that argument, you're just saying this sounds like this sounds like this = that.  Like i said.
You're just, well. Really silly.

I was trying to make you realize how unacceptable your argument sounds like.

I was saying initially that you are not in people's mind, so you should not question people's choice and vote.  If A vote for X, you can't say his vote is worthless because A had not a "independent mind" and is not truly "free".

It's like saying someone is too stupid to have the right to vote.

The reasons why A voted for X are none of your concern.  He did vote for A and that's what matters.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
What a silly person you are, so when a majority are led to believe or believe their government without questioning it, read daily newspapers and recite articles and look to them what to think and believe what their government tells them to think and believe I'm not supposed to think or say peoples minds are not independent? Who said any thing about judging?

It's just that your argument "real democracy can't exist if people are not independent and free" pretty much sound like what a communist would say to justify totalitarism.   Like you know better what's good for people.

  Yeh well  you see the funny thing is you're not countering that argument, you're just saying this sounds like this sounds like this = that without even really looking what i'm really saying. Like i said.
You're just, well. Really silly.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
What a silly person you are, so when a majority are led to believe or believe their government without questioning it, read daily newspapers and recite articles and look to them what to think and believe what their government tells them to think and believe I'm not supposed to think or say peoples minds are not independent? Who said any thing about judging?

It's just that your argument "real democracy can't exist if people are not independent and free" pretty much sound like what a communist would say to justify totalitarism.   Like you know better what's good for people.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free.

You're not supposed to judge whether or not someone has an independent mind.   You're not in people's mind so don't you deny their capability of making choices and having opinions.
What a silly person you are, so when a majority are led to believe or believe their government without questioning it, read daily newspapers and recite articles and look to them what to think and believe what their government tells them to think and believe I'm not supposed to think or say peoples minds are not independent? Who said any thing about judging?
It's a fact..
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free.

You're not supposed to judge whether or not someone has an independent mind.   You're not in people's mind so don't you deny their capability of making choices and having opinions.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Gavin kind of struggled when he had to respond to the "bitcoin is not democratic" argument.

Yeah-- "democratic" is such a loaded word. Everybody loves democracy, so I didn't want to bash it.

But democracy can be terrible if you're in the minority and the majority decides to trample on your rights.

I probably should have just said "Bitcoin is a lot more democratic than the system we currently have, where a handful of unelected central bankers control our money."

Can you give an example out of history.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Just because I want a unicorn that farts rainbows doesn't mean that I have a right to it and the rest of society should be enslaved in order to provide it to me.  It is my opinion that democracy has failed miserably all around the world, and we need to move away from the concept entirely rather than try to improve upon it with technology.

 Cheesy  Great quote.
you don't even know what democracy is. We are led to believe we are in a democracy by having a choice to vote for two main parties. Who then through the media outlets tell us what to think or believe. How can it be a democracy if peoples minds aren't independent and free.
hero member
Activity: 531
Merit: 501
Great job, Gavin.

Quick aside. When Truthloader first came upon the scene a couple short months ago, I sincerely felt, and still do, that somehow Google is behind it. They only had a small handful of videos up at the time, each having very few view counts, but Google gave it tremendous juice on its news site. After kept seeing it over and over again at the time, and doing some research (basically finding nothing to support my theory), it still seemed like Google was/is behind it. I'm not saying that that's a good or bad thing. Just saying.

Boy, wouldn't that be something if we later learn that Google was behind Bitcoin from the get-go?

My apologies for the long aside.

~Bruno K~

When I first saw their channel I thought it was a grassroots kind of thing produced in a bedroom. Turns out it's being backed by the corporate news company ITN. I don't think google is involved per say but they might have some influence since they're driving so much traffic to their channel.

http://corporate.itn.co.uk/press.php?parent_id=13&content_id=1365

Quote
ITN PRODUCTIONS TO PRODUCE “TRUTHLOADER” CHANNEL FOR YOUTUBE

ITN Productions is launching a new citizen journalism channel on YouTube as part of YouTube’s original channels initiative, announced today at MIPCOM.

The “Truthloader” channel will showcase the work of citizen journalists from all around the world with original daily programming from amateur eyewitnesses and passionate online campaigners. The citizen journalism will be curated by social media experts and professional journalists at ITN Productions.

Quote
ITN is one of the world's leading news and multimedia content companies creating, packaging and distributing news, entertainment, factual and corporate content on multiple platforms to customers around the globe.

The news programming produced for ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 reaches around 10 million people every day, providing comprehensive, impartial news provision for the British public. ITN's news is watched by millions of viewers worldwide, through partnerships with global news outlets such as Reuters, CNN and NBC and online partners such as Livestation, YouTube and MSN.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
direct democracy won't scale, but like everything else, there will be a technological solution. We just haven't developed him yet.

the technological solution is called liquid democracy and liquid feedback.

But democracy can be terrible if you're in the minority and the majority decides to trample on your rights.

Back then in anarchistic Spain (good doku), there were general assemblies, and the results of discussions were seen as merely recommendations. I.e., democracy without an executive branch.

Interesting, but we need a decentralized liquidfeedback because right now the server admin can cheat if they can figure out who doesn't double check their votes later.
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