London Hedge Funds moving into Bitcoin

theta

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Quote from: dg2010 on April 10, 2013, 08:19:01 AM

Most of my neighbors are traders, given that I live within spitting distance of Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and about 15 other mega banks.

So, which neighborhood is within spitting distance of both the City (where JPM is) and Canary Wharf (where Morgan Stanley is)?

damnek

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Looks like the Max Keiser pump didn't help much..

essem

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Quote from: dg2010 on April 10, 2013, 08:19:01 AM

Quote from: maxmint on April 10, 2013, 06:03:03 AM

Exante brokerage seems to be quite real. And their bitcoin announcement too:
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Most of my neighbors are traders, given that I live within spitting distance of Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and about 15 other mega banks.

Trust me Bitcoin has not hit the London financial crowd yet. The only people who seem to be making noise are doing so to pump up the value of their own investments. There are no big moves in London to invest in Bitcoin because there isn't anyway to begin pumping such cash into Bitcoin with the current exchanges in place. Nobody in their right mind would send such huge volumes of cash into an exchange like MTGOX who is tainted for life with the last hack crash.

The London traders will start getting serious if we had a serious exchange in the UK which allowed GBP deposits. Sorry but Intersango doesn't count.

I was speaking to a friend who has a very senior position within AML and not many knew about bitcoin and those that did deemed irrelevant, however this happened a little back when the market cap was $20-30 million

600watt

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Quote from: Frost on April 10, 2013, 05:50:27 AM

In the german forums here, someone did have a good question.

Why did Max Keiser announce the plans? Announcing this makes the exchange rate grow... and they would need to spend more per BTC

Maybe he just want to push the exchange rate with that kind of news so that he can sell at very high profit soon?

Can somebody explain if there is a logic? because this sounds scarry. Maybe we are really a playball here and nothing else?

mr keiser holds btc. he knows if he announces price will go up. (good job)

when the funds actually go in prices will go up another round. (good job)

i wish it would rise slower and more steady, but the entire world is getting attention drawn to this "cash-miracle". it´s a greed game. unlimited greed = unlimited rise of price. until someones yells: the keiser is naked! (...)

dg2010

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I perfectly understand how it works, except : I don't think there is any "old BTC holder" that wants to sell 500K coin today.

Old BTC holders are normal people that just happened to understand Bitcoin before me. If they survived up to now with so many coins they will only convert them when they have an immediate need for fiat. And they are not financial institutions that need to cash out 125 millions of dollars at the end of the month. I can't see what they could buy that they couldn't buy with 1000 or 5000 BTC. So I think the current exchange are good for them.

This is fucking stupid. You are trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people into your own way of thinking. That is simply not the case.

Manticore

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Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 09:21:44 AM

Let's say a hedge fund wants to buy 500K coins. Let's say an old BTC holder wants to sell 500K coins. These people don't know each other and decide to go on the open market, but chances are they won't make their trades at the same time. If one tries to unload 500K coins, what do you think would happend to the market? It would go down substantially, even if he/she did it in a controlled way....How about if someone tried to buy 500K in coins? Yes.....the market would go up erratically.

With dark pools, these two large players can find each other and transact without impacting the overall market as much. And they don't even have to reveal exactly how much they want to buy/sell.

I perfectly understand how it works, except : I don't think there is any "old BTC holder" that wants to sell 500K coin today.

Old BTC holders are normal people that just happened to understand Bitcoin before me. If they survived up to now with so many coins they will only convert them when they have an immediate need for fiat. And they are not financial institutions that need to cash out 125 millions of dollars at the end of the month. I can't see what they could buy that they couldn't buy with 1000 or 5000 BTC. So I think the current exchange are good for them.

Tradehill.com disagrees.

Manticore

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Quote from: Luckybit on April 10, 2013, 07:58:56 AM

Quote from: kiko on April 10, 2013, 05:52:10 AM

I don't understand what exactly Exante need Max for, other than advertising. Is that the deal? I'll go on tv and tell people about your hedge fund for a 2% fee. How does RT not ban this crap.

Max is actually very connected in that world. Look at who he sold his companies too and look at the companies he started. He's actually one of the first to do virtual currencies and if I have he right he owns some kind of patent.

Max has grown on me. He's a strange guy.

The idea has not warmed up to the vast majority the east coast hedge fund/private equity world, but they do know about it. They (generally speaking) believe bitcoins current success is symptomatic of the world's problems but they don't see bitcoin as a solution.

I think private equity on the west coast has a very different view.....they are probably quite bullish.

Manticore

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Unless, of course, the dark pool buyer is stuck in MtGox verification queue and is ready to pay a nice premium to buy its coins today and "win" 10 days. At the current growth rate, it means the seller could ask $1000/BTC and not sound ridiculous.

Dark pools would seek BTC that are closely held outside of Gox.

Manticore

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On Wall Street, there are individual traders dabbling. Institutional money would NEVER touch this. I could see some hedge funds getting involved, perhaps, on a limited basis.....the very high risk capital. Most are completely discounting bitcoin but there are a few who are intrigued about it enough to be vocal.

It's mainly the lone trader playing around with his/her (not firm's) risk capital.

Manticore

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Quote from: dg2010 on April 10, 2013, 08:19:01 AM

Quote from: maxmint on April 10, 2013, 06:03:03 AM

Exante brokerage seems to be quite real. And their bitcoin announcement too:
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Most of my neighbors are traders, given that I live within spitting distance of Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and about 15 other mega banks.

Trust me Bitcoin has not hit the London financial crowd yet. The only people who seem to be making noise are doing so to pump up the value of their own investments. There are no big moves in London to invest in Bitcoin because there isn't anyway to begin pumping such cash into Bitcoin with the current exchanges in place. Nobody in their right mind would send such huge volumes of cash into an exchange like MTGOX who is tainted for life with the last hack crash.

The London traders will start getting serious if we had a serious exchange in the UK which allowed GBP deposits. Sorry but Intersango doesn't count.

Thank you. I've been saying this for awhile now. Career suicide.

Manticore

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Quote from: ?? on ??

You didn't answer the question : why - in such a bullish market - would anyone with a large number of coins trying to cash out prefer to sell them at a "fixed" price somehow "under" the mtgox price when he can simply build a wall and quietly wait for somebody to buy it at its price ? Why ? For anonymity ? He will have to cash the check someday and pay its taxes. Unless he "dark buyer" pays in cash which I don't believe.

Let's say a hedge fund wants to buy 500K coins. Let's say an old BTC holder wants to sell 500K coins. These people don't know each other and decide to go on the open market, but chances are they won't make their trades at the same time. If one tries to unload 500K coins, what do you think would happen to the market? It would go down substantially, even if he/she did it in a controlled way....How about if someone tried to buy 500K coins? Yes.....the market would go up erratically.

With dark pools, these two large players can find each other and transact without impacting the overall public market as much. And they don't even have to reveal exactly how much they want to buy/sell.

BTC Books

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 07:14:02 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 06:43:00 AM

They could purchase 500K - 1M coins without moving the market very much using dark pools. I highly doubt they would barrel in all at once with 1B. But yes, 1B would affect the exchanges.

Dark pools do not create coins. They have to buy them somewhere. Or mine them. What would be the interest of a miner to sell large quantities of coins at bulk price when they can sell them higher on open markets ?

Do you think I'm mentally retarded?
Dark pools also help large holders sell large quantities so that they do not crash the market, because of one of the large sellers tried to unload 500K coins.....no, they would not get higher prices on the open market.

You didn't answer the question : why - in such a bullish market - would anyone with a large number of coins trying to cash out prefer to sell them at a "fixed" price somehow "under" the mtgox price when he can simply build a wall and quietly wait for somebody to buy it at its price ? Why ? For anonymity ? He will have to cash the check someday and pay its taxes. Unless he "dark buyer" pays in cash which I don't believe.

Unless, of course, the dark pool buyer is stuck in MtGox verification queue and is ready to pay a nice premium to buy its coins today and "win" 10 days. At the current growth rate, it means the seller could ask $1000/BTC and not sound ridiculous.

You kind of have it ass-backwards. Getting a discount for cash is not a phenomenon that's limited to flea markets and second-hand stores...

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

"the economy of the next generation" Wink

dg2010

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Quote from: maxmint on April 10, 2013, 06:03:03 AM

Exante brokerage seems to be quite real. And their bitcoin announcement too:
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Most of my neighbors are traders, given that I live within spitting distance of Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and about 15 other mega banks.

Trust me Bitcoin has not hit the London financial crowd yet. The only people who seem to be making noise are doing so to pump up the value of their own investments. There are no big moves in London to invest in Bitcoin because there isn't anyway to begin pumping such cash into Bitcoin with the current exchanges in place. Nobody in their right mind would send such huge volumes of cash into an exchange like MTGOX who is tainted for life with the last hack crash.

The London traders will start getting serious if we had a serious exchange in the UK which allowed GBP deposits. Sorry but Intersango doesn't count.

b!z

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This is going to be big. Buy buy buy before it's too late!

damnek

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 07:14:02 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 06:43:00 AM

They could purchase 500K - 1M coins without moving the market very much using dark pools. I highly doubt they would barrel in all at once with 1B. But yes, 1B would affect the exchanges.

Dark pools do not create coins. They have to buy them somewhere. Or mine them. What would be the interest of a miner to sell large quantities of coins at bulk price when they can sell them higher on open markets ?

Do you think I'm mentally retarded?
Dark pools also help large holders sell large quantities so that they do not crash the market, because of one of the large sellers tried to unload 500K coins.....no, they would not get higher prices on the open market.

You didn't answer the question : why - in such a bullish market - would anyone with a large number of coins trying to cash out prefer to sell them at a "fixed" price somehow "under" the mtgox price when he can simply build a wall and quietly wait for somebody to buy it at its price ? Why ? For anonymity ? He will have to cash the check someday and pay its taxes. Unless he "dark buyer" pays in cash which I don't believe.

Unless, of course, the dark pool buyer is stuck in MtGox verification queue and is ready to pay a nice premium to buy its coins today and "win" 10 days. At the current growth rate, it means the seller could ask $1000/BTC and not sound ridiculous.

Sure. They're going to let somebody with millions wait in an id verification queue.

Luckybit

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Quote from: kiko on April 10, 2013, 05:52:10 AM

I don't understand what exactly Exante need Max for, other than advertising. Is that the deal? I'll go on tv and tell people about your hedge fund for a 2% fee. How does RT not ban this crap.

Max is actually very connected in that world. Look at who he sold his companies too and look at the companies he started. He's actually one of the first to do virtual currencies and if I have he right he owns some kind of patent.

Luckybit

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Quote from: Nemesis on April 10, 2013, 05:41:37 AM

Quote from: Mageant on April 10, 2013, 04:47:49 AM

Quote from: Frost on April 10, 2013, 04:28:29 AM

Quote from: Mageant on April 10, 2013, 04:19:47 AM

Check out this Bitcoin is being offered as an investement on Exante.eu for London hedge funds (this is the Malta hedge fund people have been talking about):
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Minimum account size: 100,000 Euros.

Max Keiser claims there is $1 billion lined up for this:
https://twitter.com/maxkeiser/status/321897445422399488

Looks like the big players will be coming soon!

This "bubble" still has a long ways to go!

Can you explain for a noob like me what this would mean? $1 bilion will go into bitcoin market? Or 100.000 €? How would it change the exchange rate?

$1 billion is to be spent buying bitcoins.

At the current market price that would be about 4 million BTC.
I doubt that many people will actually be selling.
So if that happens the price will go *way* up.

If we assume they can buy 5% of existing bitcoins (very optimistic IMHO) with that $1 billion then the price has to go up 10x at least.
That would result in a price of $2500 per bitcoin.

ugh.... hedge funds managers are not that stupid. And if you believe crap from Max Keiser, you're an idiot

Not all hedge fund managers are on some great global team elite. They all have different agendas. Some are not happy with the current system just like you aren't and just happen to be hedge fund managers.

Luckybit

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Quote from: meowmeowbrowncow on April 10, 2013, 05:37:53 AM

Quote from: crazy_rabbit on April 10, 2013, 04:21:43 AM

Yeah, well, we will see about that. My mind isn't made up yet about Max Keiser, but he's a TV personality and that's almost always a bad thing. The last thing we need (and is perhaps inevitable at this point) is the rise of Bitcoin demagogues.

re: Bitcoin demagogues. Yep, can be bad.

re: Max Keiser. It's hard to make one's mind up about how 'sensational' versus 'principled' Max is. If you look at some of his one-on-one interviews you can truly see that Max is very well grounded in, what he considers to be, fundamentals of fairness, equity, impartiality.

So.... I believe Max Keiser is more so a force for good. Could he be responsible for inflating Bitcoin expectations? Sure. Though, I still think Max serves an important role.

I've emailed him at some point in the past. He's for real and actually believes in what he says. Also look at his actions, the businesses he has started and who he has on his show. He's no Alex Jones media personality, he's been complaining about the bankers since before the economic crisis began. I used to listen to him in 2004 back when I used to smoke pot all day.

Manticore

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Quote from: caveden on April 10, 2013, 07:12:44 AM

Quote from: Manticore on April 10, 2013, 06:15:18 AM

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

Dark pools would allow large holders to cash out without crashing the market, and allow themselves to enter a position without driving the market to absurd heights. You would not even know it happened.

I never understood this hypothetical logic of dark pools. It's as if you were claiming that supply and demand only affects price when deals are made publicly, but that's obviously not true. Prices are driven by supply and demand regardless of whether there is a "public market" or not.
Throwing one gigabuck at Bitcoin will certainly produce a tsunami in the price, with or without dark pools.

True, dark pools on Wall Street are used mainly for anonymity. BTC is so illiquid (relatively) that dark pools would help by matching larger buyers and sellers without moving the market as erratically.

And looking at Exante (and I already knew this actually), the fund is basically a vehicle allowing other hedge funds & HNWIs to trade in and out of bitcoins in the secondary market (with fund shares), I believe. This fund would have a greater affect on the overall exchanges than a closed-end fund because they would be dipping into various exchanges as needed (I assume).

Topic: London Hedge Funds moving into Bitcoin (Read 5098 times)