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Topic: Long Live Proof-of-Work, Long Live Mining - "there is no meaningful alternative" - page 9. (Read 15712 times)

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

POS can be superior however most of these alt POS are awful.  Fortunately the very 1st one pee pee coin is the best so far.  However it could have been made better with no inflation.  POS means people want to protect their existing coins.  The bitcoin network today is not really protected by miners, it is protected by the owners of the largest amounts of coins.  POS rewards those who keep their client open.

That's completely wrong.
Satoshi has allegedly the largest amount of coins, but has zero control over transactions.
He might decide to gain that control, but he would need to approach the hardware market and find lucrative deals or develop equipment himself, but so can do outside players with fiat. Even if he approaches the goal of total control over the network, his position will never be unchallenged.

Holding coins in PoW doesn't automatically translate to control, and gaining that control might be challenging.
I like the idea of reward for just using the client in PoS, but it is the control model, where an established inner circle of stakeholders will eventually maintain permanent hold on money flow, that bothers me.

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

True enough.

So basically in your view, a bunch of profit crazy, no stake, PoW miners controlling the Bitcoin network is ok. But actual Bitcoin stakeholders controlling the Bitcoin networks is not ok?

There is a slight difference, crazy miners don't control, they compete to control the network!
Yes, I believe that those who feel enthusiastic and competitive, should be able to compete without permission

EDIT:

Oops! I just figured my definition of freedom Smiley
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

have you anything to back that statement on? there is no proof yet to prove poi is safe or that it isnt safe so you cannot make that statement based on proof. the only thing you can base that on is opinion. so dont make a statement like that as if it is factual and provable.

I think he refers to what I said in my previous post:

Quote
I would not comment on PoI as it is too early. I have concerns if large economic entities would maintain too much importance in the long run (think Facebook, Google), but at least their positions are not set in stone an can potentially be challenged by other players, however social network effects might become a significant barrier to entry. There is no sustainable network effects in mining as hardware is rendered obsolete fairly quickly over time and players need to compete from scratch with every new round of distribution. Also not quite sure if botnets will be able to simulate a lot of activity in PoI by sending random coins back and forth and thus gaining more and more control. It sounds promising, but we will see.

Would you be able to comment?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1003
This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

POS can be superior however most of these alt POS are awful.  Fortunately the very 1st one pee pee coin is the best so far.  However it could have been made better with no inflation.  POS means people want to protect their existing coins.  The bitcoin network today is not really protected by miners, it is protected by the owners of the largest amounts of coins.  POS rewards those who keep their client open.

That's completely wrong.
Satoshi has allegedly the largest amount of coins, but has zero control over transactions.
He might decide to gain that control, but he would need to approach the hardware market and find lucrative deals or develop equipment himself, but so can do outside players with fiat. Even if he approaches the goal of total control over the network, his position will never be unchallenged.

Holding coins in PoW doesn't automatically translate to control, and gaining that control might be challenging.
I like the idea of reward for just using the client in PoS, but it is the control model, where an established inner circle of stakeholders will eventually maintain permanent hold on money flow, that bothers me.

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

True enough.

So basically in your view, a bunch of profit crazy, no stake, PoW miners controlling the Bitcoin network is ok. But actual Bitcoin stakeholders controlling the Bitcoin networks is not ok?
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

have you anything to back that statement on? there is no proof yet to prove poi is safe or that it isnt safe so you cannot make that statement based on proof. the only thing you can base that on is opinion. so dont make a statement like that as if it is factual and provable.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

POS can be superior however most of these alt POS are awful.  Fortunately the very 1st one pee pee coin is the best so far.  However it could have been made better with no inflation.  POS means people want to protect their existing coins.  The bitcoin network today is not really protected by miners, it is protected by the owners of the largest amounts of coins.  POS rewards those who keep their client open.

That's completely wrong.
Satoshi has allegedly the largest amount of coins, but has zero control over transactions.
He might decide to gain that control, but he would need to approach the hardware market and find lucrative deals or develop equipment himself, but so can do outside players with fiat. Even if he approaches the goal of total control over the network, his position will never be unchallenged.

Holding coins in PoW doesn't automatically translate to control, and gaining that control might be challenging.
I like the idea of reward for just using the client in PoS, but it is the control model, where an established inner circle of stakeholders will eventually maintain permanent hold on money flow, that bothers me.

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

True enough.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hodl!
IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
No, rich-get-richer is not my concern, but once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever is.
So far I haven't seen proven mechanisms in PoS systems that would prevent that.

Then you need to look at PoI or DPOS. No doubt in the future we will see more and hopefully better variants.
You are all stuck thinking in terms of PPC. The world has moved on.

As I understand, with DPOS the established group of stakeholders with majority vote would be able to maintain total control over the network indefinitely at no cost. It doesn't matter much if control is exerted directly or via delegates, more steps only clutter the mechanics of control and contribute to confusion.

I would not comment on PoI as it is too early. I have concerns if large economic entities would maintain too much importance in the long run (think Facebook, Google), but at least their positions are not set in stone an can potentially be challenged by other players, however social network effects might become a significant barrier to entry. There is no sustainable network effects in mining as hardware is rendered obsolete fairly quickly over time and players need to compete from scratch with every new round of distribution. Also not quite sure if botnets will be able to simulate a lot of activity in PoI by sending random coins back and forth and thus gaining more and more control. It sounds promising, but we will see.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
No, rich-get-richer is not my concern, but once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever is.
So far I haven't seen proven mechanisms in PoS systems that would prevent that.

Then you need to look at PoI or DPOS. No doubt in the future we will see more and hopefully better variants.
You are all stuck thinking in terms of PPC. The world has moved on.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1029
Definitely an ongoing debate, thanks for sharing.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
On the Reddit I read the following comment from SN811 "The PoW concept in relation to digital cash was introduced to solve a certain problem at a certain time (it's really an extension of hashcash in that sense). Anyone who designs a system based on PoW in 2014 does not understand really the purpose in the first place."

Can somebody please elaborate on what he is talking about or at least point me in the right direction?  What exactly was the "certain problem at a certain time" that is being referred to?  It seems vague to me.  
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?

I think it is NodeCoin, but as far as I know it isn't up and running. 

ah proof of activity.. i dont see that getting very far.. iirc they are having serious issues and distribution was a big problem. sock infestation and large whale purchases during the auction. tanked after launch and still no open source/white paper(i think). i dont think they will be any competition for nem's poi.. they launched waaaaaaaaaay to early.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?

I think it is NodeCoin, but as far as I know it isn't up and running. 
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 1002
PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.

We will see if PoA or PoI hold any water, they haven't been battle-tested yet on a large scale.
Maybe the ultimate solution is an intricate combination of them all?
I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.

We will see if PoA or PoI hold any water, they haven't been battle-tested yet on a large scale.
Maybe the ultimate solution is an intricate combination of them all?
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1006
PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.

what a bunch of bull, lol

Prove me wrong? Smiley
I'm particularly interested in this one with PoS:
once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever

The "forever" part is what I have the most trouble with, getting rich or lucky is ok.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.

what a bunch of bull, lol
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
So have we worked out which is the purple plants yet? POW or  POS?

There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
So have we worked out which is the purple plants yet? POW or  POS?

To each their own (miners, users) Wink
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