Topic: Looking for a simple ewallet, transactions from hot,more difficult than expected (Read 1340 times)

Hello Danny,

Again, this paragraph is not wrong, but I think it misses other perhaps more important phenomenoms. Free market is too much of an abstraction for me to trust its supposed virtues, I wait for the practicalities to be observed. I think a customer is forced to poor choices, especially when deprived of informations, and commercial enterprises are not prone to truth. In a new niche for goods or services for example, I expect the consumers to be very wary if they lack insurances for their payments, scams could flourish, information is fringe.

I'm not used to pay cash, especially for large transactions, see the problem, plus in real life, you see the seller, he has a localization, a store, you met him, you saw the product you can take with you. On the internet one is supposed to pay with bitcoins that acts like cash unknown people for products that are not tangible, hmmmm, it doesn't sound good to me.

Don't you feel it's like reinventing the existing real world simply because this bitcoin core idea of irreversibility touted as an advantage is naive and wrong, or perhaps just the only option that existed ? The designer, Nakamoto, whoever he or they are, perhaps were tech guys but didn't had a great understanding of the complicated economical matters. What keeps the insurance cost low are also the judicial consequences, if scams are easy, well spread and not punished, how do you prevent these costs from skyrocketting ? How do you prevent the third party to make a huge profit, just like a bank imposes its tax to a merchant because he uses a bank card system ? What's exactly left in the equation for a merchant to be cheaper with bitcoin than with usual means of payments as you claimed earlier the situation could be ?

The consumer is protected by freedom of choice and a free market.

The consumer can choose whether or not to patronize a given merchant, the merchant cannot force consumers to choose his business.

If a merchant is dishonest, he will earn a reputation as such and will quickly lose consumers.  Consumers will naturally choose a merchant with a good reputation over a merchant with a bad reputation.  Any sector with a shortage of trustworthy merchants will soon find entrepreneurs entering the sector providing better and more trustworthy service and putting the dishonest merchant out of business.  For this reason, it makes more sense for the merchant to be protected instead of the consumer.

Keep in mind that while bitcoin "feels" like an electronic payment system, it acts more like cash.  If you walk into a merchant and purchase an item with cash and then discover when you get home that the merchant was dishonest, you have the exact same problem as you do with bitcoin.  This is why bitcoin is often referred to
as a digital currency, digital gold, or digital cash.

A distributed risk with a trusted third party (such as Visa, MasterCard, or a bank) arbitrating the transaction is an option with bitcoin just like it is with any other currency.  There is nothing preventing an innovator from providing such a service in Bitcoin, it just hasn't been widely available yet.  I fully expect that there will come a time in the near future (in the next 3 to 5 years) when someone will offer deposit accounts that are regulated, audited, and insured.  They will offer the ability to make "instant" payments from this deposit account (no need to wait for confirmations if everyone can trust the provider).  This third party risk arbitrator will provide many of the consumer protections that credit cards, debit cards, and other bank payment systems currently provide.  Consumers will have the option of paying with "bitcoin cash" or with a "bitcoin payment processor".  Merchants will be able to choose if they wish to accept a "bitcoin payment processor" so they don't need to wait for confirmations, or if they prefer "bitcoin cash" so they can avoid chargeback risk.

The market will then be able to settle the question of which type of payment is best for each situation.

I quote you post #4 : "Oh that is simple, there are a lot of services like that."
Therefore, it exists, as Eayscoin exists, I search for a competitor.


It's a possibility, but it is going to be relatively awfully expensive, and a hassle to manage. That's why I prefer a 'natural' solution, an ewallet running from hot.

OFF TOPIC/


Ok, it was a bit strange to read your warning statement on exchanges, it seems to me like it could hinder people from entering bitcoin, apparently you put efforts in other sectors.

When I talked about guarantees or assurance, it was from the customer's perspective. I have a problem with this point of the irreversibility of transactions. Perhaps you can help and educate me
In a sale, there are two events, the customer pays money, the seller gives an object or service. Systematically the risk of dishonesty can be put on the buyer, the seller, or dissipated between every parties by using assurance products. In bitcoin, it's like the second option has been chosen. Why and how is it superior to the two other possibilities ? I fail to understand that. In my limited system of thoughts, it looks like the worst option in an economy, because a seller is forced to propose his products and take the risk, it's his job, while a buyer can refrain his buys or use the mainstream, seen as a competitor, economy that is more favorable to him. In short, I've already been scammed in bitcoins, I sent bitcoins and never received my product, I'm not encouraged to repeat this mistake, I'll buy with my credit card that has an insurance product embedded in, finally I tend to refrain from participating in the bitcoin economy.
Your paragraph is true, I understand that, but I think the three systems have their advantages and inconvenients, politically I'd be for an insured risk system, that's a bit the real world actual system, but that's just my preference. Which one is scientifically better, if there is such possibility of a proof, is not very clear at the time to me. That the banks take an undue profit is just a modality. To free the seller from the risk and think it is the best option looks naive to me, what is going to free the buyer from the risk and prevent the above scenario of a finally disgruntled customer ?

/OFF TOPIC

We've been trying to tell you, but you won't listen.  It doesn't exist.  Just use any mixer and divy your coins up into separate addresses to send from.

You're the second person in this topic claiming that the services I search for exist, that they are numerous, though not providing a single name. Again, may I ask politely for just one name, as apparently I can't find it by myself, thus this topic in the first place ? I'm not sure it is going to make a difference.

There are a lot of services like that.  If you still didn't find a service that suits you, you will not find it at all

To satisfy my curiosity, yes.  But I've never used any of the online currency exchanges for purchase, sale, or long term storage of any bitcoins.


I purchase products and services from merchants.  I've bought and sold bitcoins locally.  I've exchanged various payment methods for bitcoins with members of bitcointalk.


I provide education on how the protocol works. I assist others in acquiring bitcoins. I assist others in selling bitcoins. I assist those who are having a problem with their Bitcoin-Qt wallet. I make purchases with bitcoins from merchants that provide products or services. I provide a free escrow service for bitcointalk members to facilitate transactions between individuals that have trust concerns.


This is a benefit for merchants providing them less risk of chargeback.  As such, they should be able to offer cheaper prices with the same profit margin as other merchants that accept electronic payments such as paypal or credit cards (since chargeback fraud isn't a liability).


Once the transaction has confirmations, it is certain.  What do you mean when you say "not guaranteed"?


While regulations are minimal at the moment, I expect that governments will regulate commerce with bitcoins much the same way that they regulate commerce with cash.  Due to having the blockchain as a historical record, and the ability of a payor and/or payee to sign their transaction agreement with their private keys, it will become easier to prove the existence of a particular transaction agreement than it is with cash.


Once the transaction has confirmations, it is certain.  What do you mean when you say "not assured"?


Everything that has value is prone to scams.  That is human nature.  Dishonest people will always exist.  Dishonest people will always attempt to use dishonest means to acquire value that belongs to someone else.  This is not isolated to bitcoin.

I won't react to your Z elements, everything brought to the discussion by people who instead of contributing efficiently raise points irrelevant to either Y or believed X, and eventually create only further confusion and loss of time.

This is not meaningless at all, it's a simple resume of my requirements, one just has to put him in my shoes to see the problem from my perspective and try to solve it. Transpose spare change to the bitcoin world, find solutions. I'm no expert but I think fungibility is the learned word for what I was talking about, my coin in my pocket is exactly the same as your coin, I'd like my bitcoin to be exactly the same as yours. Anyway, I gave enough precise descriptions about what I want for the ones who want precise practical descriptions.

My idea is to have a 'natural' mixing service, no need for a specialized one, but I could use both. See the disaster of the blockchain shared coin method I've talked above. What's simpler, cheaper, more reliable and more efficient than an ewallet service running from its hot wallet ?

I have the function in my blockchain wallet. It makes sense, the problem is it is impossible in my situation. My coins come from a limited number of addresses, and they go to a limited number of addresses, eventually where they originate from. Lol. For the recipients, it's like it's written on them "look, it's always the same person".

Two major inconvenients, I give my ID to spend spare change - using a bazooka to kill a mosquito -, possible misuse or borderline use of their services, this implying it is going to be forbidden or at best slow, manually checked, and all the crap that just doesn't correspond to... SPARE CHANGE. I have coins in my pocket, I use them, I don't give my ID or wait 24 hours for authorization.

Thanks for your contribution which was not void of interest, but you may realize in the end that I have already quite well thought to the problem, probably better than you, from the start, that everything is specified clearly for good reasons, and that my quest is well-grounded and tries to address correctly my problem. As for now, I have one possible name, brought by me,  easywallet [corrected]. Problems, arrogance and high fees, I search for a competitor.

Out of curiosity, small off topic questions : "Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service." Are you registered on exchanges ? What bitcoin service do you use ? How do you contribute to the bitcoin economy ? How do you consider in the bitcoin world a commercial transaction given that they are irreversible, not guaranted, not regulated, not assured, prone to scams ?

Like I said in the first post, I have a blockchain wallet, and I've already tested this method, it's implemented in the wallet. It aborts after hours or a day because they allow unspent transactions to enter the batch of transactions, fees 0.5mB/10mb for example = 5%, it doesn't even sever addresses. Can you imagine a worse service ? As it is, they can be called incompetent, liars, or charlatans, that's what I found by experimenting.

What exactly are the requirements?


But not an ewallet.



You really didn't do a good job of explaining which were requirements and which were preferences.


Apparently.


Perhaps, but it was the best I could to in my attempt to decipher your explanation.


Apparently not.


Ok.


An eWallet. Got it. I'm not sure you understand the difference between a wallet and an unsecured, unregulated, uninsured, bitcoin bank account that isn't subject to security audits or financial audits, but we'll assume they are interchangeable for the sake of this discussion.


This is meaningless.  How does spare change "work"?  This tells us nothing about what you are trying to do.


It doesn't, but that's fine.  The URL doesn't matter.


Glad to hear it.


You are looking for a cheap, trustworthy, reliable, mixing service.

You send some bitcoins to the service.
The service keeps track of how many bitcoins they've received from you, but mixes the bitcoins that they've received from you with all the other bitcoins they receive from everyone else.
They allow you to send an equivalent amount of bitcoins from their service to any bitcoin address.

When done well, it can be nearly impossible to link the source of the bitcoins to their destination.

When done poorly, forensic accounting processes can find a high probability of links between the source and destination.

When done extremely poorly, it becomes obvious what the source is for each destination.

With such a service, there always exists the possibility that the service will eventually reveal all the links (either out of incompetence, malice, or cooperation with law enforcement).

With such a service, there also always exists the possibility that the service will lose the bitcoins (either out of incompetence, fraud, or to a skilled hacker).

Now that it is clear what you are looking for, perhaps someone can offer suggestions of a mixing service that they trust.

Personally, I wouldn't use any of them.  Instead, I use wallet software that has coin control, and that allows me to maintain multiple segregated wallets.  I use a new address for every transaction that I receive.  If I don't want 2 transactions linked, I make sure that the sources funding the 2 transactions are not linked.  If I want to make absolutely certain, I pay each recipient from a completely separate wallet.

I'd think that what you're looking for should be possible with any of the exchanges.  You could create a wallet at BitStamp, BTC-E, Coinbase, etc.  You could fund the account with "spare change".  Then you could make payments directly from the exchange.  The exchange will have information identifying you, but the coins that you pay with shouldn't be linked directly to your addresses in the blockchain.  This provides a very large pool of users to mix the coins with, making any blockchain analysis much more difficult.  Of course many MtGox users just recently discovered the risks of using such a service.

You could use Shared Coin for that. Does exactly what you asked.

This is not a requirement, but a prefererence.


Multibit is simple enough.


Instawallet could have worked, perhaps I was confused when I talked of Paytunia, they were both operated by the company that runs bitcoin-central. AFAIK, Chrome leaked the url to its search engine google, I don't use Chrome. I know another business, not to be used as an ewallet for spare change, I tried the 'exploit', the flaw was present and some private urls leaked to google. This alone wouldn't have hindered me from using this service as a spare change ewallet. Same applies to easywallet [corrected], my problem with them are the fees and general policy.


As you can't distinguish between a requirement and a preference, your assumed Y is wrong, your generalization may just plain suck and itself be the waste of time and source of misunderstanding, I think I was clear, anyway let's try again :

Y= I want an ewallet, it has to work like spare change. Forget about the url thing if it confuses you, I can login with username and password if required, I can even use an email.

X= I want spare change for bitcoins, especially coins in my pocket don't say something meaningful about me, they're just coins, everyone has the same coins. It has to be very cheap, no mafia 100btc min money laudering tumbler, no server I have to run, no 24 hours delay manual transactions done by someone who doesn't want me to abuse his ewallet service as a service for spare change transactions with other businesses.

You buy candies to a grocer, then a blowjob to a hooker, the hooker doesn't know you like candies, and the grocer doesn't know you like blowjobs. How would they know the payment life history of your nickels, eh ? If you use blockchain wallet or multibit, both coud know because they just have to check the transactions in some block explorer like blockchain.info. Indeed you did A->B and A->C transactions, grocer knows you own A, he searches for address C, finds a hooker. They both work for sweeties and other sweet oral pleasures mega-company. Is there something wrong ? I want to avoid these types of situations. Very simply, I put my A money into a big pool, now it's D, E, F, G that pay for me and I pay a little part for them, my A address remains unlinked to my activities.

I quote myself : "I have a blockchain wallet, it's a hybrid, it sucks big time for what I want to do." Come on.


I have and use multibit, it's of no use considering what I want to do. Do a lot of payments, they all originate from a limited number of address(es), especially these addresses are tied to your former activities. Try it.

This doesn't meet the OP's request:


This doesn't meet the OP's request:

It sounds like the OP is looking for something like instaWallet (which no longer exists for very good reasons).

This really sounds like an XY problem.

In this case "Y" is the Ewallet that only needs a URL, and "X" is whatever the OP is actually trying to accomplish.  The OP seems to think that "Y" will help him accomplish it, but since a trustworthy "Y" doesn't really exist, it would be better if the OP simply asked about "X" (in which case he may find usable advice on how to accomplish his goal).

Try blockchain.info or multibit

Well, would you be kind enough to write me down just one name that could fit ? Or more ? Thanks.

As I said, I dind't find a service that suits me, I explained why.

Oh that is simple, there are a lot of services like that.

What ?

I don't have a server, I'm a basic user, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I want a simple ewallet, that by design will ouput for my transactions coins from other users because using its own hot wallet. It sounds simple enough.

Sounds like you'd be better off handling transactions on your own server.  You can pretumble the coins, or mix them randomly or something.