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Topic: Losing the High Moral Ground - page 3. (Read 2822 times)

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 11:28:45 PM
#24
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

No, but claiming his opinion is invalid because he's a hypocrite, is.
Argument from authority then.

I didn't use this quote to strengthen my case. He merely put it to words rather well (and just stealing it is bad)
And I impuned his moral authority. Your argument is subjective and invalid.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
May 28, 2014, 11:27:37 PM
#23
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

No, but claiming his opinion is invalid because he's a hypocrite, is.
Argument from authority then.

I didn't use this quote to strengthen my case. He merely put it to words rather well (and just stealing it is bad)
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
May 28, 2014, 11:27:00 PM
#22
I hear you bro. Crime and get-rich-quick speculation have certainly changed the mentality here. You used to get some cred for starting a new project. Now you get trolled; and success is only measured in how many BTCs you can convert to fiat. The extreme greed shown here is proof that bitcoin has become money.    

I haven't even been around as long as a lot of people and I've already seen this change as well. It used to be about community and closeness. Now people screw over their own friends to get ahead and make a little extra money. The entire dynamic has completely gone downhill compared to where it once was.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 11:26:03 PM
#21
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

No, but claiming his opinion is invalid because he's a hypocrite, is.
Argument from authority then.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
May 28, 2014, 11:25:32 PM
#20
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.

No, but claiming his opinion is invalid because he's a hypocrite, is.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 11:24:29 PM
#19
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
Calling one a hypocrite is not ad hominem.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
May 28, 2014, 11:23:31 PM
#18
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.

Argumentum ad hominem
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 11:22:01 PM
#17
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
Said the slaveholder. Carry on.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
May 28, 2014, 11:05:29 PM
#16
I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.


I cannot. Not now, not ever.
newbie
Activity: 16
Merit: 0
May 28, 2014, 11:02:52 PM
#15
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

I couldn't agree more. Freedom cannot be contained, the old adage "your freedom stops where someone else's begins" is completely wrong, since if freedom stops, it's not freedom in the first place. It should actually read "your freedom begins where someone else's begins".

I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others.

There is no freedom in harming others, so there's no limitation of freedom there. This distortion has been brought forward mostly by right-wing philosophers who had no idea what freedom is, For them it was the fear of losing their privileges mostly Wink
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1045
May 28, 2014, 11:01:14 PM
#14
I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.

Besides, if we conclude that repression is inefficient and that empowers criminal gangs, I have no doubt about the course of action.

+1
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
May 28, 2014, 10:53:22 PM
#13
I can accept limitations on freedom to harm ourselves if that harms others. But the burden of proof is on the one that wants to limit the freedom of others to harm themselves.

Besides, if we conclude that repression is inefficient and that empowers criminal gangs, I have no doubt about the course of action.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
May 28, 2014, 10:38:14 PM
#12
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

You hit the nail on the head.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -Jefferson

Carry on.
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
May 28, 2014, 10:29:35 PM
#11
Silk Road II is now bigger than Silk Road I was (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140501/18550127094/silk-road-20-now-larger-than-silk-road-ever-was.shtml), so in this aspect nothing changed.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 06:35:44 PM
#10
To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life?

I don't put drugs in my body - but if I did, and lets say I was a drug addict (and so compelled to use, so to speak) I think I'd rather trust someone selling drugs with a proven track record and who had established a relationship of trust with individuals in the same predicament as myself.

What has any of this to do with bitcoin ? Bitcoin is "good" because its not used in transactions where the purchased product is contraband ? Bitcoins "high moral ground" was never based on this, for me at least.

Using fiat to acquire illegal drugs in the traditional fashion  [ie. cash to a Machiavellian gangsters flunkey], certainly is able to claim no moral victory whatsoever.


In other words, "I don't know so I'll go along with a tiny new fad that failed."

With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

The moral high ground includes tolerance of other people's freedoms.

You know something has created more freedom when the "bad" part of it is the fact that some people are now free to do "X" that you do not agree with.
That's right, and to protect society, those abusing freedoms will have their freedoms mitigated. Those are called statutes and referred to as "laws".
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
May 28, 2014, 06:08:46 PM
#9
With freedom comes freedoms we do not agree with.

The moral high ground includes tolerance of other people's freedoms.

You know something has created more freedom when the "bad" part of it is the fact that some people are now free to do "X" that you do not agree with.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
May 28, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
#8
To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life?

I don't put drugs in my body - but if I did, and lets say I was a drug addict (and so compelled to use, so to speak) I think I'd rather trust someone selling drugs with a proven track record and who had established a relationship of trust with individuals in the same predicament as myself.

What has any of this to do with bitcoin ? Bitcoin is "good" because its not used in transactions where the purchased product is contraband ? Bitcoins "high moral ground" was never based on this, for me at least.

Using fiat to acquire illegal drugs in the traditional fashion  [ie. cash to a Machiavellian gangsters flunkey], certainly is able to claim no moral victory whatsoever.

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1010
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
May 28, 2014, 05:30:07 PM
#7
To people defending Silk Road:

Do you really put things in your body that you have no idea where they came from? Aren't you worried about hot shots? I know they have a rating system, but is it worth trusting with your life? They are after all, DRUG DEALERS. They are not doctors or even trained chemists. If you're going to buy potent substances like that, don't you think you ought to at least know where and how they live? Bitcoin is creating some crazy notions about how society should be and Silk Road is one of the most insane. Is that all we have here anymore is scammers, drug dealers, and one real actual chick?
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
May 28, 2014, 04:21:19 PM
#6
I honestly feel that the rise of silk road was a sign of bitcoins success.  If people/addicts were willing to trade btc for their high of choice, it is a sign that bitcoin works as a currency.  Even if the seller then converted to USD, bitcoin filled one of its primary purposes.  It was used as a cheap, decentralized means of exchange out of the control of a government or financial entity.  Hopefully in the future, we can reach a point where there is some stability in the price of bitcoin vs major fiat currencies, and people will feel more comfortable storing value as bitcoins just like they do with any other store of value (precious metals, currencies, equities).
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
May 28, 2014, 03:33:46 PM
#5
But there was a snake in the garden. Silk Road created a black market that allowed criminals to become parasites to the Bitcoin development community.

I take your point - but in my opinion there wouldn't be a need for the Silk Roads of this world if national government (and the people also) had a more practical attitude towards drugs.
   The Silk Road enabled the safe sale of drugs on the basis of established trust. As daft as it might sound, maybe government has a lesson to learn here.

    But Silk Road aside, I do agree with the gist of your post. There seems to be a good portion here that view BTC merely as a means of abdicating their responsibility towards the community of which they are members. For others its just a get rich quick scheme.

   BTC will be of benefit to many different factions of society - and in different ways. But for me, it offers the greatest potential benefit to those that are currently financially disenfranchised  Wink
     
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