Topic: [LTC-GLOBAL] LTC-ATF.B1 - page 2. (Read 8962 times)

No, I'm not confusing debt for equity, bondholders have senior claim on the assets of LTC-ATF according to the contract.

Again, I'm not going to respond to your 6 posts essay other than to say that I am one of your major bondholders and you need to cut the attitude with me and realize who you are working for. If this is how you treat your other major bondholders when they ask questions you probably don't have what it takes to be a fund manager.

Just prove you have the money like you said you would, and after that just make sure you don't screw up the payment of your bond coupons and I don't see a problem. We just can't afford another screw up like pirate, and when you waltz in here swearing at people who ask you how you're making 1.56% a day it doesn't look very good.

Sure - will do that.  I usually do reports Sunday evening - after this week's I'll flash the cash (place orders on all sites).

Realise that cash is less this week than previous.  You can do the math of why yourself easily enough.  This week we bought back units (you can verify the drop in units yourself).  Obviously they were bought back in cash.  That reduced cash withotu changing other assets - making cash a lower percentage of holdings.  Because that reduction was in LTC that was a good thing - as a lot of lTC was unused.  If LTC falls heavily then the percentage in cash will rise again automatically - otherwise it's likely to stay lower than in previous weeks (largely because noone's buying on LTC-GLobal right now).

That cash will more than cover ALL bonds plus ALL units of LTC-GLobal other than my own (with some left over).  So just from that you'll know that I have more cash alone than I claim to owe investors including all the profits you think I made up (and the interest I've paid out).  Near in mind that just the buy order on LTC-ATF units thats always up covers ALL bonds right now (only because LTC's so high - usually it's only covered a small fraction of them).

You can choose which security you want me to place a bid on for each exchange (LTC-GLobal, BTC.CO, Bitfunder and MPEx via CoinBR).  But it must be soemthig decent - I'm not going to risk putting bids even at tiny prices on some scammy junk where it may get filled.  You can pick the price you want the bids put at - so long as its well below the trading zone.

BTC-E is more tricky - as you can't view below the top orders, so I can't place an order well outside the money and have you able to see it unless you use the API.  I'm open to suggestions on that - as approx 10% of fund value is sitting in cash there (for currency rebalancing, cross-currency liquidity and to lock funds against mass order fillings on sites).  Might be able to do it on the RUR pairs as there's little action so can get 5% away from spread visible.

I'll need a pretty precise time agreed in advance for it plus a list of assets/site and you can give some 3 digit ending you want so you can see the bids are the size I state AND the right ending so are obviously mine (or someone else putting them up on my behalf I guess).

I've no clue what the total will be.  Right now cash is around 500 BTC worth (15K LTC worth).  If LTC were to halve by then, it could be down to 300-350 BTC worth (20k LTC worth).  If you wonder why the values are so different to last week (way more in BTC, way less in LTC) then the answer is exchange-rate trebling + buyback of a large chunk of LTC-ATF units (capital no longer needed due to LTC rise and investors wanting to protect against the crash/correction that's happening as I type).

Imagine, just for a second, that you're good at trading and making decent profits (a stretch I know - but give it a try).  Now imagine someone who is clueless and makes a loss wants to know exactly HOW you do it - likely with the intent to compete.  Would you give them the information for free that allows them to work out how to do things - and reduce your own profits?  Or would you say "Sorry - I'll prove that I AM making the profit but precisely how I do it is none of your fucking business".

If you managed the leap of faith (imagining you were making a profit etc) then you should have stumbled on the answer to your question.

No - I don't need to release my books.  I can provide that proof WITHOUT needing you show you the books.  Do you see any of my investors (equity holders) asking for the books to be made public?  Of course not - as it would be against their interests for me to provide information on exactly how a lot of the profit is being made.  If you read my posts some of it is explained - e.g. when I explained we had sizable DMC holdings and why.  The 12 BTC (from memory) of those we had made 20+ BTC profit for us in a few weeks - which was over a 20% growth ALONE for the fund (LTC was low then).  That single set of trades more than covered 2 weeks of 7% growth (nearly 3) using about 5% of total capital.  Before you come back saying my math doesn't add up, re-read my earlier posts about leverage.

I've already explained exactly how you can go find out (with my approval) that I AM making that sort of profit by buying and selling shares on the exchanges - but you have no right to the detail of individual trades.  I'm selling Coca-Coca and you think that entitles you to the secret recipe.

Please - just go look at actual exchange rates before talking such crap.

Here's how it works.

LTC-ATF keeps around 15% exposure to BTC.  Because I dynamically rebalnce to 15% regularly this equates to the following:

If LTC doubles in value vs BTC then NAV/U of the fund (in LTC) will tend to DROP by around 8-12% (actual amount varies depending how often I rebalance - which depends on how fast the move occurs and whether I'm even online).
If LTC falls vs BTC then NAV/U will tend to RISE by a similar sort of amount (8-12% per halving).

WHen the fund started the rate was .00346.  6 weeks ago it hit a low of around .0023% - so in total until then the overall impact of exchange-rate movment was a small increase in NAV/U.

THis week alone, LTC is still more than TREBLE what it started the week at (it was QUADRUPLE when I posted earlier but is falling back).  THAT is why there's a huge fall from it this week - but hasn't been before.  If you look back at historical data for LTC-ATF you'll see we've had 2 previous losing weeks - BOTH when LTC rose sharply.

Read the data.  Understand it.  Verify that what I'm sayng is true via a charting site.  Don't just guess and spout total crap like "BTC/LTC has been rising this whole time?" when in fact LTC has had a few big rises - and a few big falls but NOTHING like the last few days since the fund started.

You're confusing debt with equity.

LTC-ATF holders have equity.  LTC-ATF.B1 purchasers own debt.  As a bond-holder you have zero say in how LTC-ATF operates - but an entitlement that your debt is paid off before equity holders get anything in the event of closure.

I don't work for you (I work for the holders of units in LTC-ATF) - I (in my role as the manager of LTC-ATF) owe you money.  The conditions of that debt are clearly laid out in the contract for LTC-ATF.B1.  They do NOT include that LTC-ATF actually makes any profit - but they DO include that LTC-ATF hold BTC-denominated assets worth more than total face value of all bonds issued and that total bond issued have a total face value of no more than 150% the NAV of LTC-ATF.

I can prove either of those conditions is met by showing just cash (that's not always the case - but is right now due to LTC being so high).

LTC-ATF.B1 hasn't lost ANY of its value.

LTC-ATF.B1 has a face value of exactly 0.01 BTC.  It's ALWAYS had that face value.  It's traded in LTC to allow investors to gain BTC exposure without having to hold/buy BTC.  Any change in the number of LTC its worth is neither here nor there as it's NOT an LTC investment.  Think of it as a pass-though to BTC.

It's EXPLICIT intent (in its contract) is to maintain a stable BTC value - and its always done that.

You (or any investor) can at ANY time sell them back to me for face value less 1% (would be silly to actually do so - as they sell easily on the market for more).  If I know your BTC.CO account name you can even have it paid there IN BTC so there's no dispute or slippage related to exchange-rates/conversion.

You just don't seem to understand how LTC-ATF and LTC-ATF.B1, taken together, allow investors to (to a large extent - but not totally in the case of LTC-ATF) control what degree of exposure they have to BTC and LTC.  If you bought LTC-ATF.B1 thinking it was an LTC-denominated investment then you badly misread the contract.  It's as though I ran a bond with a face value of $1 then BTC rose vs USD and you started whining how the bond was losing value when it was STILL worth exactly $1.

Cut the attitude. I am a 12% holder of LTC-ATF.B1. You work for me, not the other way around. If you don't want to release your books publicly I will respect that despite your lack of respect for other's similar policy.


What you totally fail to underatand is that this is not about me. This isn't about exchange rates or about how LTC-ATF.B1 lost 90% of it's value. This is about why you are publishing figures that show you are making 1.56% a day yet you claim you are only 15% invested. What you are claiming is impossible.


This is why it's so difficult to believe you. You claim on one hand that you have growth because of the change in LTC valuation. But in the very next sentence you state that the growth in LTC value is wiping out your profits. Which is it? Where is the massive 1500% growth coming from then? If you lose 18% this week how did you gain 1500% the past 25 weeks as BTC/LTC has been rising this whole time?


"I can still make 1% per day on BTC no problem"

You need your head checked. You need to stop being so pissy and explain to your investors how you are making 1% a day because no one believes you. That's what pirate said. 1% a day on exchange rates. What, you think we're stupid? You need to release your books because if anyone thinks you are making 1% a day I have some pirate bonds I'd LOVE to sell you.


Go right ahead, I will hold you to these statements.

I think you said it best yourself in your contract:

Fairness : I'm by no means shy about expressing criticism of other virtual
securities. It's therefore only fair that I run one myself and give opportunity
for those I criticise to reply in like manner. It's my hope (and expectation)
that my performance, fairness to investors, reporting standards and transparency
will make plain that - whatever else my faults may be - I'm no hypocrite when I
complain about others' lack of those same qualities.

Okay, here I am, 12% insider shareholder, show me your transparency.


Again, cut the attitude. Here's a clue. You are being asked by an insider-class shareholder to verify your financial statements. You are simply being asked to provide the same level of transparency on your own asset that you claimed you would provide. That will be all.

Actually it may be very easy.

You have my permission to do the following:

Ask burnside/ukyo/rini to query the total value of buys and sales i've made on their sites (leaving out my own assets on LTC-GLObal of course - sale of my bonds/fund units aren't profit).

You can then publish the results.

And then eat your words - as when you see the results it'll be totally obvious that my results are genuine.  They don't need to match up buys/sells as there should be sufficient excess sales to show a clear profit - to which you can add the assets I logically MUST hold plus profits made operating the pass-throughs (which you totally forget to factor in - some weeks those have added a few % to profits on their own without tieing up much capital) plus profits made selling bonds into overpriced buy orders after currency moves etc.

And the best of it is - you still won't have a clue how I'm doing most of it - just that I indisputably am.

EDIT: If you tell the operators you believe I'm committig massive fraud AND that I have zero objection to them publishing the results then I'm pretty sure they'll happily give you the figures.

One additional clause (if not too late) : you should post here stating that you're asking for the figures and commit to posting them after receiving them.  If you want to make a (bigger) fool of yourself you can do it in public.

1.  Holdings have only briefly ever gone just over 1000 BTC (earlier this week when LTC peaked - they've since fallen back to well under that).
2.  Becasue of the rise in LTC and the sale back of units we're currently nearly 30% invested.  But historically 15% invested is about right.
3.  Not 29,000 BTC.  Not 1.56% per day.  Re-read the part on leveraging.  Read it again.  And again.  Until it sinks in.  Even if you ignored levergaing (you can't) and the pulled out of thin air 29,000 number (where the fuck did it come from?) then if I were making 1.56% profit on 100% of capital by using 15% I'd be making 1.56*100/15 which is NOWHERE near 31% on the 15%.  Your math is shocking here.  I just exlained leveraging - yet you insist on taking the profit % made by the base capital and acting as though it were profit made on ALL deployed capital.  The 1.56% figure is wrong even if you ignore leveraging - it's 1% compounded (and that's growth on JUST unit value - so is nearly double the rate made on ALL capital most weeks).  Then you somehow fail at basic math and multiply a totally wrong number by 3 to get an entirely imaginary one.

On your accusation that "You're so scared to release anything on your fund you edit your posts to take out figures that might clue people in to what you're doing." simply No.  Go ask a moderator to look at what I deleted from this post.  There were NO figures at ALL in it - it was a partial explanation of a concept that, on balance, I'd rather not reveal as I don't think any other traders have figured it out.

Do your math again properly then come back with the real figure for what I claim to be making per day on all capital - you'll find it's more like 0.5%-0.6%.  Now think carefully about what having 15% of capital invested means.  DO remember I DON'T invest - I trade.  My profits don't come from buying shares with 15% of capital then holding them and hoping they magically (and it would be) make about 3-4% per day.

90%+ of capital on Bitfunder is usually committed to Bids (often all bar less 1 BTC).  100%+ on BTC.CO (can reuse same capital on multiple order books).  It''s not the SAME 15% committed one week (or one day) as the next.  That just happens to be around what is often committed at one instant in time.  The whole 100% of capital on those sites is being used all the time (not the same on LTC-GLobal usually - we DO have active capital there).  So profits are made by the WHOLE 100% capital on those sites - not just the 15% that happens to be tied up (usually) briefly in shares.

A month or two back there was actually a report where we had 100% cash.  We didn't hold a single share at all ANYWHERE.  Go dig out that report, then ask the exchange operators if I actually had exactly that cash at that date - there's zero possible dispute of ANY valuation that one.

I just don't do the sort of shitty investment thing that you did so dismally at. Get over it.

Amusing, by the way, that you think me making 7%/week investing LTC into BTC (with a solid hedge against exchange-rate moves) is impossible - yet spewed thousands of BTC of your own investors money into Obsi who was claiming to do it investing BTC into fiat (with zero hedge against fiat falling vs BTC).

Anyway, if you really honestly are convinced what I've done is faked/scammed then there's a solution to it.  Pick a solid escrow who understands enough about investments to look at transactions and work out profit.  Pick a week - any week - in which I claim to have made large profits and there wasn't much change in the LTC/BTC exchange-rate.

We each pay some reasonable sum into the escrow.  I'll then run through all my trades for that week with him/her.  We'll look at all sales I made and at what price those shares were bought at.  The results will NOT exactly match my results for the week (impossible to reconstruct exactly as I average purchases and mark things down as necessary) but at end of it the simple question will be : does he believe my stated results for the week are a good faith representation of what actually happened.  I can do it over teamview/skype chat or whatever - so he can verify the results are real.

Something like 50 BTC each sound good to you?  With most of it going to me once he confirms I'm right and the escrow getting 10 to cover his time (and it won't take much time - as bulk of profit will come from a handful of trades that made 100%+ profit).  Only other condition I'd impose is that the escrow/judge does NOT reveal details of what securities I traded etc without my approval - just confirms (or denies if you manage to pay him off) that having seen my activity for the week my posted results are credible.

I'll waste my time and jump through some hoops to prove you wrong - but you're going to put your money where your mouth is to get it.   Or you can just go PM burnside/ukyo and ask them whether my holdings seem about right - then when they confirm they're right sort of size (and the cash part is indisuptaly accurate) realise that if I actually have the assets then it's more likely I made it trading than magicked it out of thin air.

Or - and here's another alternative - which would prove me correct without having to explain to you precisely what I do.  See if you can get burnside and/or ukyo to do some queries on my accounts - where the match up every sale I did (other than of my own assets) against purchases of the same and work out the net profit/loss.  If they want to charge for that then either you pay for it OR we bet on it and loser pays.

If I can prove I have the assets and that I made them by trading then it's none of your business exactly what I traded - and against my investors' interests for me to disclose it.  Any other proposals you have which will achieve those ends are welcome - and I'll give permission happily for any calculations (such as in previous paragraph) by exchange operators to be done and the results published.  Any exchange I operate on already HAS my permission to confirm the accuracy of ANY statement I make about my holdings or activities there - just not to disclose further information beyond what I've said myself.

You want to know how I'm doing it.  Tough - you aren't entitled to know that.  But I'm fine with proving I DO do it - and have ouylined a few ways of doing it above.  If it doesn't require much/any effort from me then I'll do it for free.  If it takes a significant amount of time then you'll pay for it - but by an escrowed bet so you have zero risk of me taking your bet cash and running.

I have about 75 BTC personal liquid cash that I'm fine with betting on this (by which I mean cash that could be sent to an escrow right this second).  Can go significantly higher with a day or two's notice.  And as part of any such bet ALL cash held by the fund would also be verified as present - so if any part of my bet was with the fund's cash you auto win the bet.

Put up or shut up.

Either a bet or some proposal that doesn't involve much effort for me. - e.g. go and ask exchange-operators to work out my profits on their sites : with my permission and with any reasonable fee they want for it paid by whichever of us is wrong (so if they wanted 10 BTC for it - not unreasonable - we'd bet say 20 each so there was 10 BTC for my inconvenience as well).  We'd need to work out details - but any reasonable definition of the total trading profits being of the order of magnitude I claim should be fine by me (exchange-rate conversions and currency movement can distort it both ways).

And remember - I'm only interested in proving that I DID make the profit, I'm not teaching you for free/cheap how to do it yourself.

Oh - and it's any help in convincing you easily, right now I claim assets of 650-700 BTC for the fund (LTC having fallen in last hours has lowered it a bit).  If I prove I have those I'm fine with also proving I have the extra 75 BTC of my own lieing around idle (in fact right this instant they're in USD but they may be in BTC some time shortly) as well : so it's pretty simple for me to prove control of more assets than the total value of fund+bonds.  Which just leaves the question of whether i'm periodically depositing more, pretneding they're profit, then allowing investors to withdraw it (which would have to be the worst ponzi ever) or am actually making the profit the way I say I am.

Your fund has experienced 1.56% APD for the last six months. You're either operating a ponzi or you're cooking the books. You're so scared to release anything on your fund you edit your posts to take out figures that might clue people in to what you're doing.

1. You claim to have holdings that amount to 29,000 BTC.
2. You claim to be 15% invested.
3. You claim to be making 1.56% a day on 29,000 BTC. In short you are making 31.2% a day on the 15% invested capital.

You fail to grasp how leveraging works.  For most of the fund's history since bonds were sold we've had bonds out at 75-100% of fund NAV.

If I have 10 units of capital and make 4% per week then owners of those units make 4% per week.
If I then sell bonds with a value equal to 10 units of capital that pay 0.6% per week.
And make 4% profit on the total 20 units of capital.
Then the unit holders make 7.4% profit per week.

You totally failed to grasp BOTH reasons why the bonds were issued:

1.  Exchange-rate exposure limitation (described in previous post)
2.  Leveraging capital to increase profits (explained very simply above)

Somewhere there's a thread I made that explained point 1 in pretty fine detail before the bond was even put up for moderator approval.  I can't be bothered to find it -but you really should as you're totally missing the whole point of the bonds and then struggling to work out why the results they've produced are exactly the results they were designed to produce.  The various limitations/ratios I set on bonds aren't just pulled out of thin air - they're calculated to meet the requirements of the fund whilst protecting those who hold our debt (the bonds).

EDIT: Deleted part of post as it possibly revealed something I don't want to reveal.

What you totally fail to understand - and this is shocking from someone who ran investments (even badly) - is how currencies play into this.

LTC-ATF mainly holds LTC - most of our BTC investment is backed by these bonds, which cancel them out.  That means that if LTC rises vs BTC or vis fiat our fund's value also rises vs them.

A month ago if I held 10 LTC they were worth $0.70 total.
Now if I hold 10 LTC they're worsth $45.

You do the math on what % growth that is in a few weeks without ANY trading needed at all.

6 weeks ago LTC was at .00232 vs BTC.  Now it's at .03416.  That's over a 1000% increase in 6 weeks without ANY trading needed.  You work out what that is at an annualised rate (hint: it's a LOT higher than the figure you quoted).

If you try to value something in one currency against another currency that it's risen against of course it's going to have fucking risen.  Are you retarded or something?

The ONLY growth that is down to my trading activity is the change in LTC valuation (if LTC falls then not even all of that is - and when LTC rises some of my trading growth is wiped out).  This week LTC has risen massively vs BTC/USD (like 300-400%).  As a result of that at present we're down about 18% for the week (as we have SOME exposure).

You KNOW how I make profit - you've done it accidentally yourself a few times.  I buy things for one price and sell them for a significantly higher one.  With the massive increase in our value from LTC rising there's no way I'll be making same profit any more (in LTC).  I can still make 1% per day on BTC no problem - but when applied to our LTC value that ends up being a tiny percentage.

A month or two back if I made 5 BTC profit that was nearly a 10% rincrease for the week - look back at how small the fund was then.  Today I've made 5 BTC+ profit already whilst AFK and it's not even a 1% increase.  But that has NO impact on ability  to service bonds - as the percentage profit I make on BTC-denominated capital hasn't changed - just the impact it has when applied to (now significantly more valuable) LTC capital base.

No I'm not going to open my books to you.  If you want to learn how to make a profit, go pay someone.  However EITHER of the following options IS open to you:

1.  After this week's report I'll PROVE that I have all the cash I claim to have.  Understand that it's down signficantly form last week - a bunch of units have been bought back in LTC-ATF (this will be hard for you grasp but I've rebought 200-300 BTC worth of units yet our value in BTC has more than doubled this week - it's to do with exchange-rates if you're struggling to figure it out).  I can do it easily enough - by placing bids on all sites (proving on BTC-E will be trickiest : as I risk orders being filled there due to not being able to scroll down order and so am unable to place bids miles out of the money).  Right now we're at 72.3% cash - down from last week due to buying back over 1/4 of LTC-ATF units with cash (obviously).

2.  Find someone I trust not to use/exploit information and I'll open the books for JUST TODAY on one site site to them - show what I sold and when I bought it and at what price.  They can then confirm that JUST today's trading on ONE site generated more than the profit I need to pay the interest on ALL bonds for a week.  I THINK I'm up over a month's bond payments on ONE site TODAY but I know for sure there's at least 2 trades that each made a week's interest for all 162 BTC-worth of bonds.

You just don't understand numbers seems to be the problem.  You think Wow - how can he pay interest on all those bonds?  Yet 0.6% per week interest on 162 BTC worth of bonds is ... a miserly 1 BTC.  Which can be made by flipping 10 BTC worth of shares at a 10% profit.

And get a clue about exchange-rates and different currencies.  If you invest in BTC and it rises 10% vs USD you don't become a ponzi because you made over 7%.  Simialrly when I invest with LTC and it rises 3000% in 6 weeks vs fiat - don't blame me for that 3000% rise, but you CAN blame me for issuing BTC-denominated bonds to offset (a lot of) our BTC investments so that LTC-ATF got to keep most of that that rise AND most of the profits from trading in BTC all the weeks there wasn't a big rise.

All the results are showing is EXACTLY what the bonds were designed to do.  Increase profits by leveraging capital whilst not incurring overwhelming BTC exposure.

The short answer to "what has he invested in that gave 1500% profit vs BTC" is "LTC".  That's why our shares are sold in LTC.  That's why we're on LTC-Global.  That's why our name begins with LTC.  LTC has approximately tripled vs BTC from fund start until last report (and more than trebled in the last 3-4 days).  Without that our growth is only about 500% - which is the modest trading profits I've made.

And don't short-change me - with this week's trading we're now at over 6500% growth in BTC and I guess an order of magnitude larger in fiat.

We have lots of cash because:

1.  I like high liquidity.  ALL of my assets give instant buybacks at near NAV to ALL investors.  If you want to cash in your LTC-ATF.B1 bonds then either place them on market at near face-value converted to LTC (they sell fast anywhere near it usually) or return them to me and I'll send 99% of face-value in either LTC (pretty random what you get with exchange-rates moving around) or BTC (you get exactly .0099 per share - sent on BTC.CO as Bitfunder doesn't seem to have a transfer function for BTC).
2.  I don't buy stuff just to use cash.  I place orders for what I want at prices I want to pay and wait until they fill.  I'd guess usually 90% of cash on Bitfunder is backing orders and well over 100% on BTC.CO (can use same cash to back multiple orders on different books there).

Now you may well then say "But you're only willing to prove you have 73% of assets in cash - you might be lieing about the rest".  IF you're that stupid then here's a clue :  If your argument is that I can't make the profits I say I make with the assets I claim to have, how did I manage to make most of it without any assets at all?

The cash I can readily show is more than sufficient to buy back ALL LTC-ATF.B1 bonds AND ALL LTC-ATF units other than those I personally own (and I'd still have a nice chunk of cash + the best part of 200 BTC worth of securities).  But maybe I'm running some wierd ponzi - where I keep my own money to cover everyone's deposits, add to it so as I can prove profits I didn't make and then let them cashout nearly ALL their profits at ANY time. 

Remember LTC-ATF has a bidwall up for 100 units at 50 LTC.  That's 5k LTC = ~175 BTC at current exchange-rate.  And you'll see a few hundred already bought back recently - some when rate was even higher.  There's only 300 units outstanding in the fund.  So I have a bid up for 1/3 of those at a rate which can be converted into BTC at the current profit (if measured in BTC) of 6500%.   Oh - and did I mention that I personally own over half those 300 units anyway?  That's AFTER I cashed out some of mine this week (and other investors did too) so we could lock in profits from this LTC bubble.  Pretty bad scam if I'm paying out 6500% profits, not selling more units (we don't need to sell more - in fact I'd LIKE to buy back another 50 units if LTC stays where it is) and keep a bidwall up nearly permanently.  Only time it wasn't up recently was after another investor sold back 100 units whilst I was asleep.  I just rebalanced currencies and slung up another 100 unit order (contract only obliges me to maintain a bidwall for 5% of units but as we have the cash and can't actually use all the LTC I keep a fat wall up).

Summary.  Just because the investments YOU run don't make a profit and can't provide/maintain liqudiity don't assume everyone is so incompetent.  And that I've been averaging 7% per week when capital was low does NOT mean I'll continue to do so (in fact I've recently stated that I almost certainly won't - though amusingly I think I likely WOULD have made 7%+ this week had LTC not risen so much, in fact it could well have been a 20%+ week).

I can very easily prove I have the cash I claim to have.  I'd prefer to do it after publishing a weekly report - as then there's a record of what I'm claiming to have.  I've already given blanket permission for burnside/Ukyo to confirm ANY statement I make about holdings on their site are accurate (I accept this is tricky for shares - especially for lTC-Global with the current exchange-rate madness, but BTC.CO/Bitfunder are easy to prove).  I'm also happy to prove to someone independent and not likely to pass the details on that I've made more than 1 BTC on one site today - which is all I need to make in a week to pay interest on the bonds (your supposed concern).  Suggest someone if you want me to do that - I'd show all trades on that site today, show where those shares were bought (and for how much) and they could then see over 1 BTC profit.  Hell I'll do it for tomorrow instead if you think I cherry-picked today (hint on that - I have unrealised profits I could turn in any time, but they don't go on the books until I do it as until I actually sell the profit isn't secure). 

You can verify the holdings for the pass-throughs (and the float I hold above that) any time with Rini - again without needing further permission from me.  What I'm not going to do is give a play-by-play description of my trades as whilst most of it's very simple stuff there's some things I trade/do that I don't want other people interfering in.

If I can prove I have sufficient cash to cover all units not held by me (at the 6500% profit in BTC level) AND all LTC-ATF.B1 bonds then kind of rules out most scams immediately (as if you believe I DO have the assets then all funds are what I say they are, and if you think I don't then where the fuck did all the profit come from?).  If I can prove I can cover the cost of the bonds in 1 day on 1 site then that proves that I've no problem paying the bonds off.  You're free at any time to ask burnside/ukuo/rini whether I have holdings of the type of size I claim to have -I'm not going to argue over share prices to get to my exact figures : if you think it might only be 6400% instead of 6500% then that's a rather different discussion but feel free to move the goalposts once you've made some enquiries and found out I actually DID have exactly the claimed balances at the time of last report AND shares with around the claimed value (note: on one site, think BTC.CO, an order went through whilst I was producing my reprot - so there's X more BTC and X less value of shares or vice-versa).

I've been going over the books and I'm absolutely convinced Deprived has been lying to his investors.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1635162

This states he's only invested with ~15% of the fund (84.84% is in currency), and yet he has experienced a 1.56% daily growth rate over the past six months despite paying out 0.6% per week (~1 BTC/week) to LTC-ATF.B1 bondholders. This does not make sense. Remember, LTC-ATF is a fund which invests in securities on BitFunder and BTC-TC. What magical thing has he invested in that has given him over 1,500% growth denominated in BTC in six months? Does this make sense to anyone? With a 1200% increase in BTC, he's had a 1500% increase on top of that, in investments denominated in BTC? Read that again. Deprived is saying that in US dollar terms he has achieved something like .. wait for it...

180,000% growth in 6 months

Even if this was remotely possible three months ago it isn't today with the new exchange rate. Am I dreaming? Does ANYONE really believe Deprived is telling the truth with his financial statements? I mean come on, seriously?

What's even more amazing is now that BTC has gone from $10 to $130, Deprived can still pay out 0.6%/week on LTC-ATF.B1. From what income? Share prices and yields have been declining due to the exchange rate. Deprived is caught in the same trap Ian Bakewell was in. Where is the money coming from?

Ok ok. Let me sum this up as a single question. Deprived. Given that you have an invested asset base of ~450 BTC, how on earth are you pulling 1.56% a day over 29,000 BTC on top of the 0.6% per week to LTC-ATF bondholders? This doesn't make sense. You're lying about something, we just don't know what.

You didn't invest in any thing magic. You invest in satoshidice and what not just like everyone else. Why do you expect people to believe a lie like 1.56% growth a day? Holy shit you're growing faster than Pirate's bond and you don't think people are going to catch on to this?

I think it's time you released your books and let us see where this magical 1.56% growth per day is coming from.

The initial 1000 bonds placed for sale have all been purchased.

No new ones are currently be sold by Issuer - so all Asks on market will be by investors and may not be anywhere near the current face value.  If any bolds are sold back to Issuer then those will be relisted at usual price (face value +1% basically).

There are no plans to sell more bonds right now - more will only be made available when LTC-ATF needs more BTC-denominated capital.  When that will be depends pretty much on how quickly the volume of assets and trades builds up on BTC.CO (primarily - already it has way more trade volume than Crypto), Crypto and maybe Bitfunder.

Bond is now approved by LTC Global moderators and trading.

Have put 250 up at 1.6861 for now - will initially be selling 1000 total (10 BTC face value).

As will always be the case no huge Ask wall will be maintained - as leaves us open to someone buying up the bonds then maniuplating exchange-rate immediately to force us to buy back at a loss.  Once received funds from sales have been converted to BTC it doesn't of course, impact us if exchange-rate gets manipulated.

Asks will only ever be up when I'm online and pretty active.  Bids from fund will rarely be up - but I'll regaularly being checking for Asks from anyone wanting to sell and filling them if they're priced correctly.

First post has been updated with a section on pricing - explaining to everyone exactly how bid/ask prices are calculated.  Do note that when exchange-rate moves after placement of orders the orders may be slightly out of date for a while (in either direction).

Removed the duplicate paragraph.

The funds raised are directly being used to reduce exposure for the fund to the LTC/BTC exchange-rate.  When bonds are sold an equivalent amount will be promptly converted to BTC.  That allows us (the fund) to invest in BTC-denominated assets but with the bulk of that value being offset by a liability (the bonds) also denominated in BTC.  So any exchange-rate movement becomes pretty much a wash - other than the small amount of the fund's own capital tied up in BTC (we have to keep SOME of our own funds in BTC so as to protect bond holders against a small loss in BTC assets + a collapse in LTC leaving us unable to service the bonds).

The net result of that is that the fund's own valuation becomes largely unaffected by BTC/LTC exchange-rate (a massive swing would still have a significant impact - but not a huge one).  That means that investors in the fund can choose their own proportion of exposure to LTC and BTC by balancing their own portfolio.  Without the bonds existing that ratio would vary depening on what portion of the fund's capital was invested (or held) in BTC-denomination.

Listing on LTC Global rather than BTC.CO was done for two reasons:

1.  Simple cost.  250 LTC to create ticker on LTC Global, 5 BTC on BTC.CO.  Given that we're initially only going to selling 10 BTC worth of bonds it would be hard to justify a 5 BTC up-front cost.
2.  Convenience.  This way both assets can be managed from a single account/wallet (comingling of funds isn't an issue here obviously - as the funds ARE one pool).  And users can trade both on one platform.

Obviously against that was offset the extra complexity added by having the bonds transacted in LTC - such as the inability to sell/redeem them through permanent bids (on BTC.CO could have just left up bids at .0099 and asks at .00101).

This offering doesn't prevent us, at some stage in the future, from offering a similar bond - but transacted in BTC - on BTC.CO.

Giving a maturity was an interesting option.  I did consider it, but eventually discounted it for a few reasons:

1.  The need to redeem all bonds at once on a specific date.  Whilst this could, in theory, be handled through rollovers that would likely require use of a second ticker - as there's no way to do a forced buyback of all bonds except specific ones.  An alternative method would be to have those who want to rollover return bonds prior to forced recall then reissue theirs for free after - but I'm not a huge fan of that type of system.  Ultimately with a fixed maturity date I have to plan on having all funds liquid for bonds at that date - which could be inconvenient.

2.  The main problem with it is that the issuing of bonds is likely to be staggered and to be unpredictable.  The need for new funds to be raised from bonds depends on new assets becoming available to trade and/or liquidity in markets increasing.  Now if the bonds have a fixed maturty date at face value how easy would it be to issue new ones a month before that date?  Or a week before that date?  Given that there's a small premium charged over face value on sales (there has to be for currency exchange costs and transfer fees - and that wouldn't change even if bond was listed on btc.co) there comes a point where the maturity date is so close that it makes no sense for anyone to buy the bonds - as the premium on purchase outweighs the dividends receivable before maturity.  And even well before maturity date that acts to reduce the benefit of bond purchase.  So a fixed maturity date effectively locks us into being unable to sell bonds easily for a period prior to that date.

The second issue, as with the first, COULD be addressed by having a fixed maturity date - then issuing a new bond some period before it (on same terms with a new maturity date).  But that then raises entirely new problems for all parties.  On the fund's side we can no longer predict available capital easily - and also potentially have to pay dividends on double the capital we want for the overlap period.  On investors' side they either have to stump up double the investment or risk being shut out of rollover if the new issue sells out before redemption of the initial one.

No doubt there's ways to mitigate those issues (e.g. allowing investors to trade old for new before sales on open market) - but seemed far easier just to not have a maturity date and set a markup on forced recall price such that investors could have confidence it's not something we'd do lightly (only time I can see it happening would be if BTC trading market went dead but LTC one was still viable - where LTC-ATF wouldn't close but would want to get out of BTC-denominated assets).

I like this bond, though it is odd in a couple ways (none bad, of course).

• I'm curious why you are putting this on LTC-GLOBAL and not on BTCTC, since it is denominated in BTC. Are you going to use the funds to hedge your currency risk?
• Why not give the bond a maturity (1 year, for example), instead of making it perpetual? That would reduce your risk (both interest rate and funding) because you wouldn't have to buy it back at face value before maturity. You can put in some kind of rollover provision to allow an investor to roll the bond over to a new maturity date instead of redeeming it, if that is an issue.

BTW, you included the "start small" paragraph twice.

Bond has now been unlocked for Moderator approval on LTC Global.  Will update when (if?) it gains approval and the initial tranche of bonds are released.

[[COPY OF CONTRACT]]

DEFINITIONS

(The) Issuer / The fund trading with the ticker LTC-ATF on the Litecoin Global
Exchange.

(The) Manager : The individual controlling the user account
with the name "Deprived" on The bitcointalk forums.

The Bond : The security offered on Litecoin Global Exchange using the ticker
LTC-ATF.B1


OVERVIEW

LTC-ATF.B1 is a bond issued by the LTC-ATF.  It is a sort of hybrid lieing
somewhere between a regular bond and a 'perpetual' bond.  LTC-ATF is issuing
this bond rather than raising new capital via sale of additional units for two
primary reasons:

1.  To allow LTC-ATF to trade in BTC-denominated securities without massive
exposure to the LTC/BTC exchange-rate.
2.  To reduce the portion of future profits distributed to new investors - and
hence increase the profit retained by early investors.  This increase in
retained profits comes with an associated increase in accepted risk (by existing
LTC-ATF investors, not bond holders).

The bond is primarily transacted in Litecoins (LTC) but has a face-value
denominated in BTC.  Dividends are paid based upon this face-value.  This means
that bond-holders are effectively making a BTC-denominated investment - with
transactions just happening to occur in LTC.  This has advantages and
disadvantages for both investor and issuer - which should be carefully
considered before investing.

The bond pays a fixed-rate of interest weekly.  This rate may be increased
without notice by the issuer but may not be reduced once increased.  Bonds will
initially be offered paying a 0.6% per week dividend - then the rate will be
gradually increased as necessary until demand meets supply.  Any such increases
apply to ALL outstanding bonds, not just to new ones sold after the date such
increase is announced.


FACE VALUE

Each bond will begin with a face value of 0.01 BTC.  All Asks and Bids placed by
the issuer will be at approximately this face-value less (or plus in the case of
Asks) a 1% administration fee.  The exchange-rate used by the issuer when
placing such orders will be the rate available for immediate conversion (i.e.
buying or selling into existing orders) on the BTC-E exchange.

In general the face value of bonds will not change.  The exception to this is if
a platform on which LTC-ATF operates defaults, is hacked or otherwise loses
assets rightfully belonging to LTC-ATF.  This is dealt with in more detail in a
later section of this contract.


REDEMPTION OF BONDS

The bonds have no expiry date - that is they are perpetual in nature.  However
provision is made to allow redemption at any time (subject to certain
provisions) by holders.

Issuer undertakes to attempt to redeem at least 10% (or 1 BTC worth - whichever
is higher) of outstanding bonds on any calendar day on demand.  This will be
conducted through two primary mechanisms:

1.  Issuer will regularly check the LTC Global market for any Asks which are
priced at 99% of face value or less.  Any such orders will be filled.
2.  Any bond holder may directly redeem bonds provided at least 100 bonds are
redeemed in a batch.  This is done by transferring the bonds to the manager
(DeprivedAsset).  When manager notices such a transfer he will sell an amount of
BTC on BTC-E equivalent to the face value of the transferred bonds then transfer
99% of received funds (in LTC) to the holder.

Unfortunately, due to the bonds being valued in BTC but transacted in LTC it is
not possible for issuer to leave standing bids up on LTC Global in the manner
that is used to provide liquidity for LTC-ATF.

At his discretion manager may agree to redeem bonds by means of a transfer of
BTC on the BTC.CO exchange.  Where this occurs, such redemption will be made at
99% of face value (with no exchange-rate relevant).  This would need to be
arranged in advance and it established beyond doubt that the nominated BTC.CO
receiving account is indeed controlled by the same indivual as transferred the
bonds on LTC Global.

Manager may at his discretion sell bonds at below face value to existing bids on
the market.  This would only be done if there were a specific very profitable
(and with short-term availability) opportunity available.


DIVIDENDS

Dividend payments are due at a nominal time of 23:59:59 GMT each Saturday.  In
practice the dividend payment will be made at some time on either Saturday or
Sunday - typically just before weekly results for LTC-ATF are published.  It is
not possible to schedule dividends in advance as the amount of the dividend (in
LTC) cannot be calculated without knowing the exact exchange-rate available at
the time of payment.

Dividend will be a fixed percentage each week.  This percentage will be set at
0.6% per week when the bond is first placed for sale.  Thereafter the rate may
be increased at any time without ntoice by the issuer.  The rate may never be
decreased by the issuer whilst there are any outstanding bonds.  Changes to the
interest rate will be published in the official threads for this security and in
the LTC-ATF threads.  Any increases in interest rate apply to all oustanding
bonds, not just to ones sold after such increases.

When a dividend is paid the following procedure will be used to calculate the
amount to be dividended:

1.  The BTC value of the dividend will be calculated - the number of outstanding
bonds multiplied by their individual face value multiplied by the current
interest rate paid.
2.  a)  If the issuer does NOT need to convert BTC into LTC to pay the dividend
then the exchange-rate used to calculate the LTC to pay will be the mid-point
between highest bid and lowest ask on the BTC-E LTC/BTC trade list.
    b) If the issuer DOES need to convert BTC into LTC to pay the dividend then
an amount of BTC equal to the due dividend will be used to purchase LTC on
BTC-E.  The LTC received from this transaction(s) will be the amount dividended.
3.  The full amount of LTC calculated (or obtained) will then be dividended out.
 No admin fees or transfer fees will be deducted from it.


MANAGEMENT FEE

No management fee is taken for maintaining operation of these bonds.  The
manager expects to gain his reward from increased profitsfrom his personal
LTC-ATF units and his 10% fee on LTC-ATF earnings.

The admin fees charged on purchases and sales are to cover (or reduce) the
various transfer and exchange-use fees necessary to conduct such actions.


RISK EXPOSURE AND MITIGATION

In general bond holders have senior claim against all assets of LTC-ATF (up to
face value of the bond).  Most risks associated with LTC-ATF's operations are
carried by LTC-ATF rather than this bond.  There is one specific risk which is
shared with bond-holders - the full or partial default of a platform (e.g.
exchange) on which LTC-ATF holds funds.  This particular risk is share with
bond-holders for two reasons:

1.  There is nothing LTC-ATF can practically do to mitigate this risk.
2.  Bond-holders already accepted this risk when they deposited funds to LTC
Global to invest.

In the event that a platform on which LTC-ATF trades (or holds funds) loses (or
ceases to make available for use) assets belonging to the fund then the face
value of bonds shall (at the discretion of manager) be reduced by a percentage
equal to the percentage of asset value controlled by LTC-ATF lost (or made
unusable).

So if (for example) BTC-E vanished with all our funds on there, and those funds
amounted to 10% of the total assets managed by LTC-ATF then the face value of
all bonds would be reduced by 10% to 0.009 BTC.

If such a reduction occurs and LTC-ATF continues trading (rather than closes
down) then half of all future profits made (after payment of bond dividends and
before management fee is taken) would be applied to increasing bond face value
back up towards its initial value of 0.01 BTC.

Other than the above, all risks associated with trading (prices crashing, typoed
orders that lose money, investments that turn out to be scams etc) are carried
by LTC-ATF and do not affect the face value of bonds or the dividend payments
due on them.

So there are precisely two risks bond-holders have (other than that the issuer
scams them) :

1.  Losses caused by default/theft from an exchange used,
2.  That the value of LTC-ATF assets falls to a level such that the total assets
of LTC-ATF are less than the face value of issued bonds.

Here are specific risks associated with point 2 - and how they are addressed:

Exchange-rate changes : If all of LTC-ATF's investments were in LTC-denominated
securities and LTC suddenly tanked against BTC then LTC-ATF could end up with
insufficient funds to cover the face value of outstanding bonds.  To counter
this the fund must maintain BTC-denominated assets such that outstanding bonds
amount to a liability of no more than 90% of such assets.  So if we have 90 BTC
face-value of outstanding bonds then we must hold at least 100 BTC of
BTC-denominated assets.  Funds will be exchanged between currencies as needed to
maintain this minimum ratio.  This percentage will be included in LTC-ATF's
regular reports (usually, but not always, produced weekly).

Trading Losses : It is possible for LTC-ATF to accumulate trading losses such
that it no longer holds sufficient assets to cover outstanding bonds at face
value.  This cannot be totally removed as a risk (as exchange-rate could) but is
very heavily mitigated through a few methods:

1.  Every effort is taken to spread exposure rather than allow a single point of
failure (one asset issuer) to be able to cause massive losses to LTC-ATF.  As
LTC-ATF expands back into BTC-denominated investment the range of securities we
can trade grows - and we can reduce exposure per security.  Prior to bond launch
LTC-ATF has targetted a maximum exposure of 20% of assets to a single issuer.
After significant bond sales this target will fall to 10% (until a significant
number of bnds have sold this risk is irrelevant unless every investment
collapses at once).  That's a target - not a firm commitment - but one taken
very seriously.  Exposure to a single asset issuer includes indirect as well as
direct exposure - so holdings of investment companies traded ARE taken into
account.  LTC-ATF never trades securities of investment companies that don't
disclose their holdings.

2.  A limit is placed on the number of bonds that LTC-ATF may have outstanding.
 This limit is defined as bonds with a total face value of 150% of LTC-ATF's own
NAV.  So if LTC-ATF had 100 BTC of assets without any bonds then maximum bonds
it could issue would be 150 BTC worth.  This ratio will also be included in all
regular reports of LTC-ATF.  If this ratio ever rises above 150% then manager
will promptly ensure that it is reduced below 150% by either issuing more units
of LTC-ATF and/or repurchasing bonds from the market.

In practice there is no plan to ever intentionally get close to the two limits
defined above.  However the first likely will on occasion need to be corrected
(if a few BTC investments suddenly fall heavily in value).  The second is only
likely to need adjustment if LTC falls very heavily against BTC.

Despite the above mitigating actions risk cannot be totally eliminated.  To
claim otherwise would be ignorant and/or deceitful.  Investors should always
consider potential risks before investing - that is the case here as it is
everywhere else.


BOND RECALL

The issuer has the right to forcibly recall all outstanding bonds at will.  This
must be done at 105% of face value - with the LTC payment made defined as the
LTC obtained by selling 105% of total bond face value (in BTC) on BTC-E.  No
admin fee or transfer fees may be deducted from this.

Whilst there's no intention to ever do this, this right has to be reserved in
case trading conditions become such that supporting outstanding bonds can no
longer be justified.  An example would be if BTC-denominated exchanges closed
down but LTC Global remained open - where LTC-ATF could continue but there'd be
no need or use for BTC-denominated capital.


FUND CLOSURE

In the event of LTC-ATF closing operations all outstandings bonds will be
redeemed at 100% of face value - with the LTC payment made defined as the LTC
obtained by selling the total bond face value (in BTC) on BTC-E.  No admin fee
or transfer fees may be deducted from this.

Dividends remain due every week until such time as LTC-ATF is able to make such
a final payment.

If fund closure is announced then LTC-ATF may not repurchase any units or make
any payments of settlement to LTC-ATF investors until all bonds have been fully
redeemed.  Bond holders have absolute seniority over LTC-ATF unit holders in all
claims on LTC-ATF assets in such a circumstance.


GENERAL ISSUES / FINE PRINT

In various places this contract refers to BTC-E when discussing currency
exchange.  Whilst at the time of making this contract that is the exchange used,
such use is not intended to restrict issuer from using other such exchanges.
All occurrences of "BTC-E" should thus be read as "BTC-E (or such other exchange
as the issuer chooses to use)".

Changes may only be made by issuer to this contract if either:

1.  There are no outstanding bonds,
2.  A vote is passed approving the changes with 100% of bond-holders voting yes.

LTC-ATF may not hold outstanding LTC-ATF.B1 bonds itself (this is impossible to
do without use of a proxy account anyway).

For the purpose of this offering, BTC and LTC are considered virtual currencies
with no intrinsic value (akin to currencies in online games).  This fund is
being run for the entertainment of the manager and investors with no expectation
of financial gain or loss for either party.