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Topic: [LTC-GLOBAL] The Litecoin Global Virtual Stock Exchange - Public Beta - page 7. (Read 21380 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-global-the-litecoin-global-virtual-stock-exchange-public-beta-101694)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

I read through the thread on GLBSE about default contracts.  Because the contract is between the asset issuer and the share holder, I worry that having been in on the drafting of the contract, there may be some liability if something important gets missed.  Some contract examples for issuers to cut and paste would be really nice though.


Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.

I have been thinking very seriously about having a feature on assets that the asset issuers could turn on that would act as insurance on each individual asset.  It would work like this:

- asset issuer checks a box at creation time saying "I want insurance".
- asset issuer sets the value of insurance they want.  (should be roughly IPO price times number of initial shares released)
- the initial value of insurance desired results in an immediate up-front charge to pre-load the insurance fund.  (eg, 250 LTC on top of the 250 LTC creation fee)
- asset gets approved, and from there on every single trade has an "insurance fee" percentage tacked onto it of say, 0.1% or 0.2%.
- the insurance fee would go into an insurance wallet dedicated to that asset.  the value of the insurance wallet and the fact that the asset is insured would be prominently displayed on the interface.
- when the insurance wallet reaches the pre-determined value of the insurance requested, the insurance fee is no longer charged.
- if the asset issuer later defaults, the insurance fund is dispersed to current shareholders.

Thoughts?

I tend towards believing that sort of system is pretty pointless.  The funds that go into the insurance in effect come from investors (other than the token initial payment) - but are assigned to whoever currently owns the shares.  If we consider the two extreme cases first, it may make clear while the fund doesn't do much worthwhile:

1.  Right after IPO when all initial shares have been sold.  At this stage the insurance fund will hold 250 LTC +0.1-0.2% of share purchase price.  This is the point at which a quick scam is going to run off.  The 0.1-0.2% comes from the current investors - so if the fund defaults all they're getting back is 0.1-0.2% of what they originally paid + 250 LTC/number of shares.  Contributing the original 0.1-0.2% has gained them no benefit over just buying the shares at 0.1-0.2% less and keeping the other 0.1-0.2% themselves in tehir own wallet with the ability to use it at any time they choose.

2.  Now consider many years down the road - where the insurance pool covers the entire IPO price.  That money is not producing any revenue - but is assigned to the current share-holders.  That means that (if we take a share which dividends out all profits for simplicity) the price of those shares has to have doubled (as each share is now backed by twice the IPO price - half as working capital, half as insurance).  But income is only being generated from the half of that revenue which is in the hands of the company - AND there's no way shareholders can ever get hold of that half other than through the company defaulting.

COntinuing with case 2 - now consider this from the perspective of a new investor.  He has the option of investing in this insured company or in another company which has been running as long but doesn't have the insurance fund.

Company 1 (insured) - has shares costing 1 LTC and 1 LTC of insurance backing each share.  It trades at 2 LTC.
Company 2 (uninsured) - has shares costing 1 LTC and 0 LTC of insurance backing.  It trades at 1 LTC.

Both have the same apparent level of risk of default.

So he can buy the insured share - or instead but an insured 1 and keep the equivalent of the insurance money himself in his own wallet, accessible at any time (and able to be able to be used to produce more profits).

Obviously the share prices would NOT be double for company 1 than company 2 - but if it is NOT double then that just makes company 1 an even worse investment - as it means cash being spent on the purchase/transfer of company 1 shares is not ending up being reflected in the company's share-price.

A more likely scenario long-term is that company 1 ends up with shares only valued slightly higher than company 2.  I believe this would be the case - given they both have same assets and generate same revenue and the only premium on value for company 1 is in the insurance which MUST be valued at below 100% of value unless you KNOW an immediate default is going to occur - at which stage the REST of company's value becomes worthless.  What that means is that the vast majority of the insurance payments going into the fund have added no value to the stock - making company 2 the better investment all along UNLESS you believe the risk of default is high.  And if you believe the risk of default is high the NEITHER is worth investing in early.

In short : Company 1 only becomes a good investment when the insurance fund is maxed but has no great impact on the share price due to default being seen as highly unlikely.  Company 1 is a significantly worse investment in early stages because you get nothing of note back if it defaults - and the insurance premium (which can't have its full value rationally reflected in the share price) means you make a loss when you sell the share on (compared to company 2).

Looking at it from an entirely perspective, consider the following.

Investor one invests 1000 LTC every day in new shares - always in insured ones on which 0.1% (1 LTC) is taken for insurance.
Investor two always invests 999 LTC every day in new uninsured shares and puts 1 LTC into a cold-wallet every day.

Which of them is better off?  I'd say invest two is better off.  He has immediate access to LTC every day and doesn't have the (no matter how small, non-zero) risk of the exchange failing and keeping his insurance funds.  Investor 2 has actually "insured" himself not just against the share defaulting but also against the exchange defaulting. 

Personally I'd be investor 3 - who invested 1000 LTC in uninsured shares.  If I believe my investments will make a non-zero profit then it makes more sense than leaving any in an insurance fund (whether my own cold-wallet or an exchange-run one).

Any insurance plan which involves LTC sitting around generating no income is automatically bad value in my book.  There's actually a danger that such plans would HELP scammers - as it's a really cheap and easy way for a scammer to ptove (to those who don't think it through) that they're real.  Whilst the actual genuine businesses would reject it - as it's simply a bad way for their investors' funds to be used and devalues their shares in relation to the capital invested them compared to uninsured companies.

For similar reasons to the above paragraph I'm not a big fan of "ID verification" as a means to determining whether a company is legitimate.  It detracts from what I see as the two real things potential investors should be looking at:

Does the business have a plan which will actually make a profit?
Is the business verifiably able to do what it claims it would be doing?

From my perspective, looking at most of the scams, the red flag has nothing to do with whether they were verified or not.  The common thread to a lot of them is that they never provided any credible and verifiable means by which they would make money.  That includes pass-throughs to unidentified magic-money-making enterprises and the development of websites with no credible evidence that they could ever be monetarised sufficiently to generate the sort of revenue they'd need for the capital they were asking for.  If a company can make money doing what it says it'll be doing then that's a much better incentive for me to invest than whether they produced IF (fake or not) or have some sort of insurance policy that decreases my earnings whilst they don't default and doesn't give back much if they do.

What SHOULD be verified is when a company claims to be associated with a real world company -as one of the bonds on LTC-GLOBAL does.  Amazingly people are asking for proof of hardware - but not for the very basic prrof I'd want (before investing) that they actually ARE working in behalf of that company.  If something that is verifiable is claimed then no way am I investing until it's verified.  I'm not saying the exchange should do that - but it amazes me that investors will see someone say "I'm working for company X - here's their website" and not think "well OK - let's see something up on that website confirming what you say."
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-global-the-litecoin-global-virtual-stock-exchange-public-beta-101694)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

I read through the thread on GLBSE about default contracts.  Because the contract is between the asset issuer and the share holder, I worry that having been in on the drafting of the contract, there may be some liability if something important gets missed.  Some contract examples for issuers to cut and paste would be really nice though.


Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.

I have been thinking very seriously about having a feature on assets that the asset issuers could turn on that would act as insurance on each individual asset.  It would work like this:

- asset issuer checks a box at creation time saying "I want insurance".
- asset issuer sets the value of insurance they want.  (should be roughly IPO price times number of initial shares released)
- the initial value of insurance desired results in an immediate up-front charge to pre-load the insurance fund.  (eg, 250 LTC on top of the 250 LTC creation fee)
- asset gets approved, and from there on every single trade has an "insurance fee" percentage tacked onto it of say, 0.1% or 0.2%.
- the insurance fee would go into an insurance wallet dedicated to that asset.  the value of the insurance wallet and the fact that the asset is insured would be prominently displayed on the interface.
- when the insurance wallet reaches the pre-determined value of the insurance requested, the insurance fee is no longer charged.
- if the asset issuer later defaults, the insurance fund is dispersed to current shareholders.

Thoughts?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ltc-global-the-litecoin-global-virtual-stock-exchange-public-beta-101694)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Quote
as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)
Why would it make it impossible to determine the real depth? Why can't I place a buy order for 10 shares @ 1LTC and 10 shares @ 2LTC? It doesn't distort the market. Based that you have enought shares/ltcs.

I get the feeling that you haven't tried it.  That is exactly what you can do.

Quote
You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.
Why is that allowed? That way you can flood litecoinglobal with fake buy orders.

They're not fake.  They're standing orders backed by currency in your wallet.  When one is filled, your order list is re-evaluated and anything that you can no longer afford gets removed from your standing orders.  It's no different than more complex sites where you can setup lists of conditional orders, "if this happens, do this, if that happens, do that".  Except in this case we simplify it and handle it for you.

One of the biggest complaints about GLBSE was that you couldn't put conditional bids up on more than one security backed by the same coin.  We have solved that.

Cheers.

hero member
Activity: 968
Merit: 547
Quote
as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)
Why would it make it impossible to determine the real depth? Why can't I place a buy order for 10 shares @ 1LTC and 10 shares @ 2LTC? It doesn't distort the market. Based that you have enought shares/ltcs.

Quote
You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.
Why is that allowed? That way you can flood litecoinglobal with fake buy orders.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Rolled out a few new JSON api endpoints this evening:

Q: Do you have an API?
A: Now you can query JSON formatted ticker and historical trade data via the following URL's:

https://www.litecoinglobal.com/api/ticker/LTC-GLOBAL
https://www.litecoinglobal.com/api/history/LTC-GLOBAL

Replace out 'LTC-GLOBAL' with the name of the ticker you wish to view. In addition, if you browse to your account page, there is a custom URL there that you can use to view your portfolio. Do not share your portfolio URL with anyone!
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
The most promising and useful Litecoin project.  Smiley

Could you please change the script so that mutiple bids and asks are possible?

Can you clarify?  Multiple bids are possible if you have the LTC.  Multiple asks are possible if you have the shares.  You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.  You just cannot do it on a single security, as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)

Cheers.
hero member
Activity: 968
Merit: 547
The most promising and useful Litecoin project.  Smiley

Could you please change the script so that mutiple bids and asks are possible?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Big changes in the layout tonight.  Hope everyone likes it!
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
I'm all for voluntary transparency.  Requiring it though would be impossible to enforce.

And even if you were successful enforcing it... Even the most responsible asset issuers would still cross-invest (usagi), disclose it (usagi), eventually tank, (usagi's getting there) and ultimately take down the exchange anyway.

I watched cross-investment behavior take down wall street in 2007 and watched it take down GLBSE in 2012.  That crap just doesn't work and even if it's transparent, people don't know what to watch for.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Wouldn't it be better to just demand transparency?

If a LTC-GLOBAL security issuer invests more than x% into another LTC-GLOBAL security and holds this position for at least Y days, it MUST make details of trade open.

This way people can take this into account in their pricing computations. If they want to invest into incestuous ponzies, it's their right.

Failure to disclose should be punished. Perhaps you can also recommend disclosing positions on external exchanges, at least for funds.

If LTCI invests in LTC-ATF, there is nothing wrong with it: it's in contract. If LTC-ATF then day-trades on LTCI, nothing wrong either, at least if LTC-ATF is only a fraction of LTCI's holdings.

If LTC-ATF will hold a lot of LTCI shares it might be a problem, but it's also a violation of LTC-ATF's contract.

You can make a separate page with a list of positions which have to be disclosed. Then people can compute indirect ownership. (It's not trivial: company X might own parts of Y and Z which will own W which will invest into X. To solve this you need to solve a system of linear equations... I once implemented this for a large holding company.)

If people will detect "incestuous" relationship they can notify the public...

So it can be effective anti-pump&dump, no?

Problem with only having transparency is that its no use after you're invested.  e.g :

Asset owner runs 2 companies A and B with no investment etc in one another.

You invest in company A.
Companies A and B then do a share-swap of a large chunk of shares.
The asset owner can now control motions and fix the share prices - plus maybe you didn't invest in B because you don't believe its business will be profitable.

How does transparency help you?  It maybe makes it more obvious that you're screwed - but you're screwed nonetheless.

Now you could argue that companies A/B shouldn't be allowed to do a share-swap - but most contracts on here have very little restriction in them in terms of what the asset owner can do with handing out shares/trading them.

Where I agree with you to an extent is that there should likely be an additional part to the rules - that those restrictions can be waived in certain circumstances provided that:

1) The details of the proposed exemption are posted (either here or on LTC forums),
2) Share-holders are notified of the request,
3) No significant portion of shareholders (say no more than 10%) object - which can be verified by motion if necessary.
4) The exchange operator agrees.

So if someone has a genuinely good reason why they need a long-term exemption then they should clearly explain why they need it, how it benefits (or at least doesn't harm) their investors, why no conflict of interest arises from it and any other information of relevance.  By allowing well-reasoned exemptions, just about all problems with the rules vanish - as where some restriction doesn't make sense for your specific business, you have the option to explain why.  And if people can't properly explain WHY something makes sense for their investors (rather than just for themselves) then I'd rather they didn't run a company at all tbh.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
Wouldn't it be better to just demand transparency?

If a LTC-GLOBAL security issuer invests more than x% into another LTC-GLOBAL security and holds this position for at least Y days, it MUST make details of trade open.

This way people can take this into account in their pricing computations. If they want to invest into incestuous ponzies, it's their right.

Failure to disclose should be punished. Perhaps you can also recommend disclosing positions on external exchanges, at least for funds.

If LTCI invests in LTC-ATF, there is nothing wrong with it: it's in contract. If LTC-ATF then day-trades on LTCI, nothing wrong either, at least if LTC-ATF is only a fraction of LTCI's holdings.

If LTC-ATF will hold a lot of LTCI shares it might be a problem, but it's also a violation of LTC-ATF's contract.

You can make a separate page with a list of positions which have to be disclosed. Then people can compute indirect ownership. (It's not trivial: company X might own parts of Y and Z which will own W which will invest into X. To solve this you need to solve a system of linear equations... I once implemented this for a large holding company.)

If people will detect "incestuous" relationship they can notify the public...

So it can be effective anti-pump&dump, no?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
New working version of the anti-incest clause:

* Securities holding long term investments are not to invest in other long term investment securities on LTC-GLOBAL.  (long term = holding assets greater than 30 days.)
* Securities created by the same issuer or organization, or in collusion with the issuer or organization are not to invest in each other on LTC-GLOBAL.
* Long-term investment securities are not to invest more than 20% of their portfolio into any other single security on LTC-GLOBAL.
* Long-term investment securities are not to own more than 20% of the outstanding shares of any other single security on LTC-GLOBAL.
* Securities on LTC-GLOBAL are allowed to invest in other securities outside LTC-GLOBAL without restraint.  Buyer beware.  (No way we could police this unfortunately...)
* If found in violation of these rules, you will be given a warning and will have 7 days to come into compliance.  If you do not comply your asset will be delisted.
* If repeatedly found in violation of these rules and you have received more than 3 warnings your asset will be delisted.

Please poke holes in it.   Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
I have to track the votes as they're made to show a real-time tally, but I have set it up so that when the motion ends (and at regular intervals while it is open) it will iterate back through all the votes, tally the shares held at that time, and do a vote count update.

BTW... I didn't realize GLBSE was that broken.  That's horrible and not all that hard to fix.

Cheers.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Cross-post form my own asset's thread:

I fixed your 'NO' vote.   Grin

There was a bug where asset issuers were able to vote with their non-outstanding shares.

Cheers.

Yeah, guessed that was the case - only issued the motion to test the system.  Next one I'm gonna try is voting with the shares on my personal account, sending them back to main asset, returning them to my personal account and seeing if they get to vote again Smiley

Not sure how you do voting - if you just add up votes when someone clicks the vote button then you'll have same problem GLBSE has (you can end with more votes than shares - and by transferring shares the votes can be rigged).  Way i THINK you should do it is to register the vote for the person voting - and only convert it to actual share-votes when the motion ends (based on whatever shares they hold at that time).

Cross-posting this to your thread for the exchange in case you miss it here.

Awww man.... you're spot-on.  I'm storing vote counts when you click.  You can't vote twice on the same motion, but you could vote, then transfer, and that person could vote on the same shares.  Will fix that ASAP.

Thanks - saves me testing that Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Cross-post form my own asset's thread:

I fixed your 'NO' vote.   Grin

There was a bug where asset issuers were able to vote with their non-outstanding shares.

Cheers.

Yeah, guessed that was the case - only issued the motion to test the system.  Next one I'm gonna try is voting with the shares on my personal account, sending them back to main asset, returning them to my personal account and seeing if they get to vote again Smiley

Not sure how you do voting - if you just add up votes when someone clicks the vote button then you'll have same problem GLBSE has (you can end with more votes than shares - and by transferring shares the votes can be rigged).  Way i THINK you should do it is to register the vote for the person voting - and only convert it to actual share-votes when the motion ends (based on whatever shares they hold at that time).

Cross-posting this to your thread for the exchange in case you miss it here.

Awww man.... you're spot-on.  I'm storing vote counts when you click.  You can't vote twice on the same motion, but you could vote, then transfer, and that person could vote on the same shares.  Will fix that ASAP.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Cross-post form my own asset's thread:

I fixed your 'NO' vote.   Grin

There was a bug where asset issuers were able to vote with their non-outstanding shares.

Cheers.

Yeah, guessed that was the case - only issued the motion to test the system.  Next one I'm gonna try is voting with the shares on my personal account, sending them back to main asset, returning them to my personal account and seeing if they get to vote again Smiley

Not sure how you do voting - if you just add up votes when someone clicks the vote button then you'll have same problem GLBSE has (you can end with more votes than shares - and by transferring shares the votes can be rigged).  Way i THINK you should do it is to register the vote for the person voting - and only convert it to actual share-votes when the motion ends (based on whatever shares they hold at that time).

Cross-posting this to your thread for the exchange in case you miss it here.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Open transactions will not prevent what we are trying to prevent.  I would respectfully ask that if you're not going to contribute in a positive way you find somewhere else to waste your time.

Well. Do you know that public companies are required to notify investors about long-term risks to their business? (Particularly, in fillings... Form 10-K or something like that.)

For example, Microsoft mentioned that Linux is a potential threat to their OS business.

What I'm saying is that decentralized exchanges might be a threat to your business. This is in fact very relevant to LTC-GLOBAL the stock long term price target...

Or did you expect that people would only give your company praises? That's not how it works.

That's constructive criticism.  There was a definite change in the tone of your post.  I'm fine with that and outright encourage it.  I also highly encourage anyone posting facts that are informative and helpful to keep investors from getting the shaft on any one of the forum topics covering LTC-GLOBAL securities.  We NEED that.

Cheers.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
The motion system is now live.  Please note that you'll want to make sure you have your account timezone set properly when scheduling votes. 

I built it pretty fast.  Please let me know if you run into any issues!

Cheers.



Am testing it now with a motion on LTC-ATF.

The motion was essentially that my investors believe that the motion system is working.

I then voted "NO" with the actual asset-issuing account.  If the 99,000 unissued units get to vote then it obviously is NOT working.  If the vote from them is ignored (as it should be) then the motion might pass Smiley

LOL, I saw that.  Thanks for catching that!  Should be fixed now.   Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
The motion system is now live.  Please note that you'll want to make sure you have your account timezone set properly when scheduling votes. 

I built it pretty fast.  Please let me know if you run into any issues!

Cheers.



Am testing it now with a motion on LTC-ATF.

The motion was essentially that my investors believe that the motion system is working.

I then voted "NO" with the actual asset-issuing account.  If the 99,000 unissued units get to vote then it obviously is NOT working.  If the vote from them is ignored (as it should be) then the motion might pass Smiley
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