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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 17614. (Read 26718434 times)

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
price is dropping?

better login and debate this
 once and for all
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

C'mon! Stop talking BS and fork it!
If you don't, just STFU!

I guess you missed the part about BU doesn't want a contentious fork.  I would be very happy if we could all STFU about BU, but people keep saying that BU wants to fork without consensus, which is an utter lie.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
I like how people that have no control over a hard fork like to challenge other folks that don't have any control over a hard fork to endless debate.  Makes total sense, right?

Endless debate passes the time when the exchange rate is dropping hard and fast! Smiley

Also, any of us could be mining pool operators, couldn't we?
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
This is hilarious, BU etc. all I know is what ever Bitcoin is taking away Alt coins are giving back  Grin hasn't been this good since early last year  Wink
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 5474
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

BU does not want a contentious fork.  It is just a tool to allow larger blocks without requiring the blessing of self-appointed bitcoin priests.  Miners will only utilize the tool when the market is ready to have larger blocks.  They are not dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot.  There is no magic threshold that will trigger a hard fork.

If you actually want to understand BU and not just parrot the unfounded attacks on it, check out the BU subfourm on the forum where the idea was hatched back in 2015: https://bitco.in/forum/forums/bitcoin-unlimited.15/

Start threads, ask questions, find out what BU actually is.  If you are right that is is bad, you'll be able to attack it much better once you understand it.

I like how people that have no control over a hard fork like to challenge other folks that don't have any control over a hard fork to endless debate.  Makes total sense, right?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

C'mon! Stop talking BS and fork it!
you first

I don't need a fork! I don't need unlimited spam on the blockchain!
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Already a green candle ?!?

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

C'mon! Stop talking BS and fork it!
you first
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

C'mon! Stop talking BS and fork it!
If you don't, just STFU!
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Fine, I'll just broadcast all those 0 fee transactions first. I wasn't thinking when I suggested keeping them to myself. They are 0 fee, I have nothing to lose!

And remember, I'm here to get paid block rewards to attack the chain. Even if I lose out on some close blocks, so what?

Miners are free to prioritize however they'd like.  I can't imagine you'd get more than a couple blocks accepted before they implemented countermeasures.

Nodes are also free do decide what to forward.  Unless your 0 fee transactions have sizeable outputs, they would already be dropped by today's network.  How many btc are you willing to devote to this pointless attack?

I'm not sure how broadcasting 0 fee transactions that send bitcoins to myself costs me anything. As I said, I would be paid block rewards. I don't know that the attack is considered pointless if I'm adding bloat to the chain without contributing anything.

The "implemented countermeasures" is what I'm interested in. I mean, how does one tell my transactions from a regular user? Or my blocks, for that matter? As I said, I fully expect BU to eat itself in short time and be more restrictive than a simple you-get-what-you-pay-for fee market.

If they reject blocks that are more than 5% free transactions, you would lose your block rewards or have to limit your bloat to 5% of the block.  They could alternatively do it using some measure such as (delta utxo)/(tx fees) >= some minimum.  If you aren't bloating the UTXO, you're actually helping since miners can easily prune transactions with no unspent outputs.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
Fine, I'll just broadcast all those 0 fee transactions first. I wasn't thinking when I suggested keeping them to myself. They are 0 fee, I have nothing to lose!

And remember, I'm here to get paid block rewards to attack the chain. Even if I lose out on some close blocks, so what?

Miners are free to prioritize however they'd like.  I can't imagine you'd get more than a couple blocks accepted before they implemented countermeasures.

Nodes are also free do decide what to forward.  Unless your 0 fee transactions have sizeable outputs, they would already be dropped by today's network.  How many btc are you willing to devote to this pointless attack?

I'm not sure how broadcasting 0 fee transactions that send bitcoins to myself costs me anything. As I said, I would be paid block rewards. I don't know that the attack is considered pointless if I'm adding bloat to the chain without contributing anything.

The "implemented countermeasures" is what I'm interested in. I mean, how does one tell my transactions from a regular user? Or my blocks, for that matter? As I said, I fully expect BU to eat itself in short time and be more restrictive than a simple you-get-what-you-pay-for fee market.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

BU does not want a contentious fork.  It is just a tool to allow larger blocks without requiring the blessing of self-appointed bitcoin priests.  Miners will only utilize the tool when the market is ready to have larger blocks.  They are not dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot.  There is no magic threshold that will trigger a hard fork.

If you actually want to understand BU and not just parrot the unfounded attacks on it, check out the BU subfourm on the forum where the idea was hatched back in 2015: https://bitco.in/forum/forums/bitcoin-unlimited.15/

Start threads, ask questions, find out what BU actually is.  If you are right that is is bad, you'll be able to attack it much better once you understand it.

Yay rational debate!
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
In the hopes we can start an actual dialog and quit throwing insults at each other:

BU does not want a contentious fork.  It is just a tool to allow larger blocks without requiring the blessing of self-appointed bitcoin priests.  Miners will only utilize the tool when the market is ready to have larger blocks.  They are not dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot.  There is no magic threshold that will trigger a hard fork.

If you actually want to understand BU and not just parrot the unfounded attacks on it, check out the BU subfourm on the forum where the idea was hatched back in 2015: https://bitco.in/forum/forums/bitcoin-unlimited.15/

Start threads, ask questions, find out what BU actually is.  If you are right that is is bad, you'll be able to attack it much better once you understand it.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Fine, I'll just broadcast all those 0 fee transactions first. I wasn't thinking when I suggested keeping them to myself. They are 0 fee, I have nothing to lose!

And remember, I'm here to get paid block rewards to attack the chain. Even if I lose out on some close blocks, so what?

Miners are free to prioritize however they'd like.  I can't imagine you'd get more than a couple blocks accepted before they implemented countermeasures.

Nodes are also free do decide what to forward.  Unless your 0 fee transactions have sizeable outputs, they would already be dropped by today's network.  How many btc are you willing to devote to this pointless attack?
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Bear with me
Stamp and Finex are extremely oversold indeed. It has to bounce back big, it just has to. No fucking way is this the normal price.
legendary
Activity: 2604
Merit: 3056
Welt Am Draht
Chinese coins, the type you can't withdraw from the exchange, are now more expensive than liberated ones. That's an odd little metric of something.

Not to mention btc-e being 20 bucks more too.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Miners will include everything that contains a transaction fee, even one satoshi. Why? Because even one satoshi is one satoshi. And then came spam...................

One could add 100GB to the BU blockchain, just by spending 1 BU coin.

This is not a reasonable game theory interpretation of what will happen. They will set the block size to yield the highest total fees, which would require the exclusion of very low fee transactions.

So, we've had tons of "spam" on the network, I assume that "spam" will continue post BU (should that happen). I also imagine lots of new "spam" as an attack on BU.

Miners craft blocks to get the highest total fees, means they are accepting blocks of that size? What happens when a malicious miner crafts blocks of the same size but filled with their own transactions, thus not draining the mempool what-so-ever?

I'm not convinced that incentives will simply be mine-blocks-for-rewards if there is a fork. I think we will see all kinds of attacks on both networks (after this long of a stalemate and the bitterness we are seeing today, it would be naive to think otherwise) and I'm interested to see how BU with it's multiple variables (additional complexity) deals with such attacks. I fully expect them to eat themselves before long and hard code rules to prevent certain things from happening, basically ending up even more restrictive than a simple you-get-what-you-pay-for fee market.

we welcome fee paying spam.  Cheesy

if you guys want to create valid blocks on our network thats cool man

even if you want to do some tests and see if invalid blocks get rejected thats OK too

If you are accepting blocks of N size with fee paying transactions, you will also accept my blocks of N size consisting entirely of 0 fee transactions to myself that I've not broadcast but simply put in my blocks. My blocks are valid according to your rules, bloat the chain, do not help reduce the mempool, and still receive block rewards!

And because your block had unbroadcast transactions it would take longer to validate than a different block released at about the same time.  Because BU has parallel validation of competing chains, your block would lose out even it arrived slightly quicker.  It is this orphan risk that creates the cost.

Fine, I'll just broadcast all those 0 fee transactions first. I wasn't thinking when I suggested keeping them to myself. They are 0 fee, I have nothing to lose!

And remember, I'm here to get paid block rewards to attack the chain. Even if I lose out on some close blocks, so what?

ya man wast your money

Huh? I'm getting paid block rewards. I lose out on BU fees, but so what? I'm attacking BU's chain and getting paid to do it! How much are the fees going to be anyway when blocks are big enough to include all these transactions? Isn't that the selling point? Fees are too high, we need bigger blocks?

if you aren't including fees you're gonna be minning at a loss.

pretty soon, all minning will be based on fee revenue.

and my node will ignore your 0fee paying TX you attempt to broadcast.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
Miners will include everything that contains a transaction fee, even one satoshi. Why? Because even one satoshi is one satoshi. And then came spam...................

One could add 100GB to the BU blockchain, just by spending 1 BU coin.

This is not a reasonable game theory interpretation of what will happen. They will set the block size to yield the highest total fees, which would require the exclusion of very low fee transactions.

So, we've had tons of "spam" on the network, I assume that "spam" will continue post BU (should that happen). I also imagine lots of new "spam" as an attack on BU.

Miners craft blocks to get the highest total fees, means they are accepting blocks of that size? What happens when a malicious miner crafts blocks of the same size but filled with their own transactions, thus not draining the mempool what-so-ever?

I'm not convinced that incentives will simply be mine-blocks-for-rewards if there is a fork. I think we will see all kinds of attacks on both networks (after this long of a stalemate and the bitterness we are seeing today, it would be naive to think otherwise) and I'm interested to see how BU with it's multiple variables (additional complexity) deals with such attacks. I fully expect them to eat themselves before long and hard code rules to prevent certain things from happening, basically ending up even more restrictive than a simple you-get-what-you-pay-for fee market.

we welcome fee paying spam.  Cheesy

if you guys want to create valid blocks on our network thats cool man

even if you want to do some tests and see if invalid blocks get rejected thats OK too

If you are accepting blocks of N size with fee paying transactions, you will also accept my blocks of N size consisting entirely of 0 fee transactions to myself that I've not broadcast but simply put in my blocks. My blocks are valid according to your rules, bloat the chain, do not help reduce the mempool, and still receive block rewards!

And because your block had unbroadcast transactions it would take longer to validate than a different block released at about the same time.  Because BU has parallel validation of competing chains, your block would lose out even it arrived slightly quicker.  It is this orphan risk that creates the cost.

Fine, I'll just broadcast all those 0 fee transactions first. I wasn't thinking when I suggested keeping them to myself. They are 0 fee, I have nothing to lose!

And remember, I'm here to get paid block rewards to attack the chain. Even if I lose out on some close blocks, so what?

ya man wast your money

Huh? I'm getting paid block rewards. I lose out on BU fees, but so what? I'm attacking BU's chain and getting paid to do it! How much are the fees going to be anyway when blocks are big enough to include all these transactions? Isn't that the selling point? Fees are too high, we need bigger blocks?
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