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Topic: Making Bitcoin and its Forks Turing Complete - page 2. (Read 586 times)

jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
Quote
no, they are all valid transactions to users who just haven't been born yet
But you could just use OP_RETURN! Better: you could use OP_RETURN inside TapScript and just commit to the blockchain, instead of burning coins! There is no reason to burn anything, there is also no reason to bloat the chain. Another thing is that one commitment for the whole network would be cheaper than pushing every commitment for every user.


using OP_RETURN to store data in blockchains actually creates far more bloat then the method we are describing here.

the maximum amount of OP_RETURN data currently supported by the network per transaction is 80 bytes.... i think.. Undecided it has been awhile since i checked.

by using a sendmany transaction i can fit somewhere up to 3K 20 byte chunks into a single transaction.

around 60K per transaction. (very rough estimate)  apertus.io's default bitcoin wallet settings currently cap the transaction size to 300 or 6K.. this is an adjustable setting. apertus.io is designed to work on 100's of other altcoins as well... not just bitcoin.

would you prefer i store a 60KB picture of my daughter's cat using 700 transactions or 1 transaction?   Cheesy



<3 #embii
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
So in reality you are just creating UTXO bloat by spamming bitcoin blockchain with unspendable transactions and creating pointless burden for full nodes that have to load those UTXOs...

no, they are all valid transactions to users who just haven't been born yet. they are tiny gifts to the future that could eventually be spent.  perhaps when we have moon bases on io or when mars has breathable air again.
Translation to normal English: never.  Roll Eyes
Pooya is right on this one: These UTXOs will remain forever in the UTXO set which full nodes to have to maintain actively, so its size is artificially increased by people doing these types of experiments. Since you are still an extremely tiny minority, we don't see 'bad effects' of it yet, but if the idea catches on, I do see how this can eventually become an attack on Bitcoin.
You can find it in .bitcoin/chainstate.

https://statoshi.info:3000/d/000000009/unspent-transaction-output-set?orgId=1&viewPanel=8&refresh=10m
If we have a look, it's currently almost 5GB, but since we know that e.g. this project exists, it can never ever go down close to zero again, but will have a certain 'base' defined by the coins sent to addresses for which private keys are lost or never existed (such as in this application). Mathematically, they do exist, but you and I know these coins will never be spent.

apertus.io transactions are not pointless spam, they are memories of loved ones, art, a historical record of humanities failures, hopes, fears and triumphs
on permissionless blockchains every person can and will decided for themselves how to allocate their own funds. what i have placed under bitcoin's protection will exist long after all of us are dead.
It depends on how you define pointless spam. If you think of Bitcoin as a payment system, you could argue they are. Similarly to someone starting to write down large chunks of information on bank notes; it's not their primary purpose, but it does work if you split the data across enough bank notes. However, it can reduce the usability of the system, hence they will be replaced by the bank sooner or later. This is not possible in Bitcoin, though.
So if you were to upload a 5GB movie through this method, which according to you wouldn't even be very expensive (roughly $50,000), you could effectively double the UTXO set size. If someone were to splurge $5M on such an attack, the chainstate would increase not by 5GB but by 500GB and become too large for most nodes to continue operation. Am I missing something? Seems like a very powerful attack to me.
copper member
Activity: 903
Merit: 2248
Quote
no, they are all valid transactions to users who just haven't been born yet
But you could just use OP_RETURN! Better: you could use OP_RETURN inside TapScript and just commit to the blockchain, instead of burning coins! There is no reason to burn anything, there is also no reason to bloat the chain. Another thing is that one commitment for the whole network would be cheaper than pushing every commitment for every user.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
So in reality you are just creating UTXO bloat by spamming bitcoin blockchain with unspendable transactions and creating pointless burden for full nodes that have to load those UTXOs...

no, they are all valid transactions to users who just haven't been born yet. they are tiny gifts to the future that could eventually be spent.  perhaps when we have moon bases on io or when mars has breathable air again.  if they really are unspendable as you say...the action of burning bitcoin just makes it more scarce, increasing the overall value of the crypto that can still be traded.

you are welcome.


apertus.io transactions are not pointless spam, they are memories of loved ones, art, a historical record of humanities failures, hopes, fears and triumphs
on permissionless blockchains every person can and will decided for themselves how to allocate their own funds. what i have placed under bitcoin's protection will exist long after all of us are dead.


http://bitfossil.com/474b81dcdf6c85e762092799e2a96886f2165e825d17e7eca58f210c2a572ce2/index.htm


<3 #embii


legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
So in reality you are just creating UTXO bloat by spamming bitcoin blockchain with unspendable transactions and creating pointless burden for full nodes that have to load those UTXOs...
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
Since you mention the moderators, please write what you want to say in a concise way and in single posts, not 10 after each other with a sentence each. This isn't an instant messenger.

Pinned here, you can find:
32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
this was fun.... back to work

<3 #embii



ohhh  one more thing...this is for the moderators.  Grin

http://bitfossil.com/5e9579b5054250ef319be9523f80ae1591217133616bdb9a02a1d3cc7d319b19/index.htm

<3 #embii
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
bitfossil  filters the actual transaction files out for security reason   

[MNT]   is basically a tiny file called MNT with no extension

this testnet MNT example is actually linking to metadata that exists on the curecoin blockchain.  you would need both blockchains for it to be considered a valid transaction
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
with 0.4.0 we are introducing NFT trading capabilities.

you .. yes YOU alone can list and trade NFT's on any compatible blockchain...without any company in the middle taking service fees with each sale. 

as a buyer i chose...me...it's my choice.. lol... to trust the NFT Creator's signature..and that's all that is required to ensure the integrity of the object they created as they trade through unlimited amount of owners. 

we simply walk a tree of signed transactions...    apertus.io 0.4.0 has a very simple realtime state engine that runs on your own laptop that keeps track of this making NFT ownership info and trading history easily query-able   
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
there are no central servers... its just you and the blockchains you choose to support running on your own laptop.  apertus.io is not a blockchain..it's just a tiny application that runs on your own laptop.....i have 8 blockchains running on my laptop.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
you decide who to trust...YOU...only you...an organization could offload some of the trust functionality if you want them to....that choice is up to #you.... this is complete total decentralization.  power to the people....

<3 #embii
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
good i am tired of talking about gas as well....lol....this functionality was realized by hugpuddle.org before #ethereum..
we didn't think that an entirely new class of blockchains or gas was required to do these types of things.
we are releasing  0.4.0 this year designed for a larger much less technical audience.    (the world)  lol


trust is accomplished by signing a hash of the application transactions using bitcoin's or the altcoin's internal signing function and including the signature with the transaction... monitors perform the same function in reverse comparing the hash to the signature and if they match and if the address is a trusted source then the transaction is executed if it's executable......if there is no signature or if the signature doesn't match it is ignored..

<3 #embii
Who decides who's a trusted source? Doesn't sound very 'decentralized' to me. I still like the idea, but if you have an entity that decides who can run a blockchain-'hosted' application on your server (also the very concept that there's a server), it is not decentralized.
But just let people upload & download data; they can execute software locally, if they want. I think hosting data is way more useful and needed in a world of censorship, than hosting software and providing a way to run it online, though.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
good i am tired of talking about gas as well....lol....this functionality was realized by hugpuddle.org before #ethereum..
we didn't think that an entirely new class of blockchains or gas was required to do these types of things.
we are releasing  0.4.0 this year designed for a larger much less technical audience.    (the world)  lol


trust is accomplished by signing a hash of the application transactions using bitcoin's or the altcoin's internal signing function and including the signature with the transaction... monitors perform the same function in reverse comparing the hash to the signature and if they match and if the address is a trusted source then the transaction is executed if it's executable......if there is no signature or if the signature doesn't match it is ignored..

<3 #embii
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
trust so monitors can execute programs or interpret application transactions as soon as they are deployed autonomously
trust so i don't execute a program that was designed to take over my machine or steal all of my bitcoin.   lol
Gotcha! Makes sense. So you blindly trust that if I put a program in there, it's not malicious or how do you know 'who to trust'?

here is an example of the current cost which is based on transaction size alone.  no gas fees required.

bitcoin is .21 cents per 20 bytes
doge is .14 cents per 20 bytes
litecoin is 0.0013 cents per 20 bytes
mazacoin is 0.0000000000000000? cents per 20 bytes lol
That's pretty fine. As far as I can tell, you did pay more for that pong game, but you could have gone lower, right.

But in essence, you're just putting data on the blockchain by using OP_PUSHBYTES_20 section as data section, correct?

Why do you keep mentioning gas fees? We're not in Ethereum land, nobody here cares about gas or even thinks about it, no need to mention it all the time. Smiley
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
trust so monitors can execute programs or interpret application transactions as soon as they are deployed autonomously
trust so i don't execute a program that was designed to take over my machine or steal all of my bitcoin.   lol


here is an example of the current cost which is based on transaction size alone.  no gas fees required.

bitcoin is .21 cents per 20 bytes
doge is .14 cents per 20 bytes
litecoin is 0.0013 cents per 20 bytes
mazacoin is 0.0000000000000000? cents per 20 bytes lol


hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
bitcoin and all the altcoins are not turing complete without apertus.io  together they are a completely decentralized turing machine that uses signed transactions and trust to operate.
That's where I strongly disagree with the definition, but alright.
Why trust, though?

Okay, I will read it through more thoroughly, but from a quick scan and checking those transactions again, it appears that you do basically just split a file into many small chunks and send small amounts of BTC to invalid addresses that are actually those hex chunks. Then your program can read those out as raw bytes and put back together into program code, images or text (even audio files), is that right?

To be more exact, by 'sending to addresses' I mean that you encode data into the OP_PUSHBYTES_20 part of an output instead of putting a public key hash for which you actually have the preimage / private key. So they are unspendable / lost coins, right?

Do you have an estimate on current-day costs to deploy a file like this (sat/Byte or something like this)? I see your examples are almost 8 years old now; back then it was super cheap of course.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
~
So you are just storing source code of programs on the blockchain? That's not making Bitcoin Turing complete, because the code is not running on Bitcoin, it's just stored on the blockchain. That's like saying my hard drive or GitHub are Turing complete, because I can store program code on them.

Nonetheless, I'm interested in better understanding how you are storing the data.

For instance, you have a JavaScript file stored in transaction 743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46.
It only contains normal transactions to apparently valid addresses, so the idea of using hex bytes as recipient addresses hasn't been done here, apparently.

#true

bitcoin and all the altcoins are not turing complete without apertus.io  together they are a completely decentralized turing machine that uses signed transactions and trust to operate.

here is a great website that describes the process.
https://cirosantilli.com/cool-data-embedded-in-the-bitcoin-blockchain/atomsea-and-embii
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
~
So you are just storing source code of programs on the blockchain? That's not making Bitcoin Turing complete, because the code is not running on Bitcoin, it's just stored on the blockchain. That's like saying my hard drive or GitHub are Turing complete, because I can store program code on them.

Nonetheless, I'm interested in better understanding how you are storing the data.

For instance, you have a JavaScript file stored in transaction 743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46.
It only contains normal transactions to apparently valid addresses, so the idea of using hex bytes as recipient addresses hasn't been done here, apparently.
jr. member
Activity: 62
Merit: 6
to follow #embii on the bitcoin blockchain (prod / testnet) simply search for #embii in any apertus.io browser connected to a fully synchronized bitcoin wallet.

PS: Once your bitcoin wallet is fully synchronized you can disable your internet and browse the blockchain offline in complete total privacy.

<3 #embii
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