Topic: MAX BTC VALUE (Read 1552 times)

That is an ancillary attribute that sometimes exists but is not required which is why it is not the first sentence of the Wikipedia page.


Yes it does:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8671/any-counter-proof-that-satoshi-nakamoto-did-not-design-a-ponzi-scheme-on-purpose



That doesn't make me a troll. You need to look up the definition of troll. I am stating what I believe to be facts.


It is the essential requirement which is why it is the first sentence at Wikipedia.

And not all currencies must to have this property. Has it entirely flown over your head that the value of a currency is given by the velocity relative to hoarding? Learn the economics of the Quantity Theory of Money else STFU.

Btw, this extreme hoarding is why gold lurks at low price, the catapults higher when fear drives velocity, then crashes again as fear subsides.

You are a simpleton. You don't have the knowledge, so please STFU.


Please ignore me. Thank you.

I checked that link, here's what I found:


No, it doesn't, but more importantly it doesn't match the definition of a Ponzi Scheme either.



I thought I already made that clear.  You keep incorrectly calling Bitcoin a Ponzi Scheme.



While this may be one attribute of a Ponzi Sheme, it is not a definition of a Ponzi Scheme.  If this is the definition of a Ponzi Scheme, then all currencies are Ponzi Schemes.  If all currencies are Ponzi Schemes, then what do you offer as an alternative to a Currency?


Ah ha!  Now we get to the root of it.  What we have here is a troll with an agenda.  At that is my cue to put you on ignore.  It is clear that you will not have anything constructive, interesting, or useful to say in the future.



Unfortunately, you will probably get out of Newbie Jail eventually and have the opportunity to spew your nonsense all over this forum.  Such is the price of freedom.

For those who want to learn some economics, here is the way you calculate the value of a currency:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1163/how-can-determine-the-fundamental-theoretical-value-of-the-bitcoin-based-on-stea/8641#8641

For those who think the Quantity Theory of Money doesn't exist, then nothing for you here, just continue along your ponzi yellow brick road.

That is me. I am Shelby Moore III.

I think you need to!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_schemes


WTF? What if anything have I written that is not genuinely intended to teach people about experience I had in my own life about losing massive amounts of money speculating?


Jesus Christ! Do you know that I programmed one of world's first WYSIWYG word processors, Word UP (google it) back in 1986 when you were probably still in diapers.

I was one of the first three programmers of what became Corel Painter, the first program that let you paint with a Wacom tablet and simulates real paints, canvas, with grain, bleed, pressure, tilt, etc.

Then I wrote arguably the world's first social network, CoolPage.com which download.com will confirm to you had million users back in 2001 when Yahoo GeoCities free hosting was big and at one time we have 335,000 sites made with the product as confirmed by AltaVista, back when the internet was 1/10 the size it is now.

Do I need to provide an exhaustive resume to convince you that I can program anything I want to and I do understand very well the technology of Bitcoin.

But this discussion isn't even about technology, it is about human psychology and economics. And again I am very well studied in that area too.

It doesn't matter what I say here, because you fools are going to go and speculate. The important matter is if I can make a correct judgement of whether there is a market here worth my pursuit.

One thing I have learned is that no P2P currency will prosper if it doesn't include an appreciating value, i.e. deflation.

People don't understand that deflation concentrates wealth to the rich, because the rich have a higher % of their income to save. If you can't put that simple math in your head, then don't bother me.


A ponzi scheme is where there needs to always be new people bringing capital in, else the price collapses in a spiral. This is because there is no income model.

This is why I am saying a correct design (such as my design for AnonyMint.org AnonyCash.org AnonyCoin.org you can go read it) should discourage dormancy-- i.e. the measurement of how long the coins sit with one owner and are not traded.

If you know the Quantity Theory of Money (wikipedia is your friend), then you understand that the value of a currency is dictated by the money supply and the velocity of money, not just one of the two.


WTF? All the data says Bitcoin's ponzi interest is far outscaling its transactional value thus far. And the comments I see in this forum confirm the data. You fools are in the "it will go up forever" ponzi delusion.

Enjoy the ride!


MODERATORS PLEASE UNLOCK THE JAIL SO I CAN GET OUT OF THIS NEWBIE FORUM, I don't have time to waste on this nonsense.

+1

Try to firstly learn, what Ponzi Scheme is.

It is clear that you are a troll.  What is not clear is which of the following is true:

• You have no understanding of what bitcoin is, or how it works, and are just spouting random stuff you've heard from other uneducated people.
• You have no understanding what a Ponzi Scheme is, or how it works, and are just spouting random stuff you've heard from other uneducated people.
• You understand exactly what a Ponzi Scheme is, and what Bitcoin is and how it works.  You therefore understand that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi Scheme, but you don't care.  You find it entertaining to lie and try to confuse and mislead people.

The "it's different this time" is always a key ingredient to ponzi bubbles.

Okay now it is crystal clear now what Bitcoin *IS*.

The power elite need not worry at all.

As with ponzi bubbles, they usually go higher than the level-headed minds expect. See you at $1000... but I won't be invested.

The most convincing thing ive heard, which pretty much disproves most predictions is that BTC, is not only a currency but a protocol, a commodity, a stock in essence, etc. etc. etc. which essentially makes it behave uniquely & differently PRETTY MUCH ALL other stocks.

All good ponzi starts with a "plausible" story. Sigh. You humans never learn.

I thought Bitcoin was supposed to have some virtues that were going to help humanity? What happened to that developers? Do you see the monster you have created?



Oh my. Happy dustbowl trails.

Indeed BTCBUDDY1 that was one of the many things I've read and digested about Bitcoin and I've not read anything before or after that compares to the optimism of that article!

I countered it by reading a couple of articles about how Bitcoin will crash based on (mostly false) comparisons with traditional stocks and shares.

The truth is somewhere in the vast chasm of the middle-ground but won't it be fun finding out?

It should be read by everyone interested in Bitcoin but is DEFINITELY NOT the last word!

The unsophisticated writer of that article apparently has no knowledge of some Economics 101 concepts. Bitcoin is a Substitute good.

There is rule of nature and investments, "small things grow faster". It is fact that the larger Bitcoin gets, the slower it can grow, because larger percent of the target market is already in.

Thus when a smaller professional competitor is available, there is a shift to the one that has the higher growth potential.

One of the barriers is that any upstart needs to have sufficient liquidity to accept the new inflow. But remember that P2P currencies generate their own new coins. And if the new user can generate new coins on a equal footing, then they too might want to reset the clock and "get into Bitcoin at the beginning". And they can if there is a new serious offering that has some serious advantages that makes it realistic to project a future for it.

His simpleton math and thought process reminds me of this math predicting $32,000 price for silver based on relative M3 money supply (do any of you remember this guy?):

http://www.silverstockreport.com/email/Future_Gold_and_Silver_Prices.html

Step 1: Read this: http://falkvinge.net/2013/03/06/the-target-value-for-bitcoin-is-not-some-50-or-100-it-is-100000-to-1000000/
Step 2: Get your mind blown 
Step 3: After recovering go all in.

Perhaps there is a market for a secondary system (with convertibility between Bitcoin of course) to become a more stable value, for merchants and businesses that can't operate under the volatility of speculation. Litecoin is not best for this, as it doesn't have a mechanism for stabilizing the value.

AFAIK, the only advantage (other than shorter block time) Litecoin appears to have is a place for non-ASICs miners to transition to, so is it just "losers avenue" without sufficient differentiation to gain economy-of-scale?

I need to go clarify that my design does not attempt to stop all appreciation, rather it attempts to smooth it, so that the appreciation is more reliable. It intends to make sure you gain and not end up bitten and destitute (as nearly all even great speculators do in the history of the world). But everyone needs to go bankrupt at least once in their life before they believe this. No child will listen not to put their hands on the hot burner. And I am not about to physically restrain anyone.

So what would be the real advantages of the system I propose?

* Smoothed value that encourages the transaction rate to increase or track appreciation (i.e. the weighted-average of hoarding to decrease or track appreciation).

* all clients can earn the new coins on a more equal footing (thus the debasement is given to the owners without the centralizing negatives of Proof-of-Stake)

* more transactions means a bigger future and higher appreciation long-term, and a real currency that can be used when we really need it in the coming BIG MESS and WORLD WAR 3.


Perhaps you can at least read this one linked paragraph, which explains that "network effects" are required become a useful currency:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8639/how-can-bitcoins-be-used-for-daily-currency-if-their-value-changes-erratically/8647#8647

Being able to buy a few dozens or even 100s of items online is no where near being a useful currency when TSHTF (and that is very soon). And it is not accelerating. The dormancy values in Bitcoin are likely increasing, because more and more people are just salivating on the buy&hold speculation. I know someone who is a big investor in silver, he just sold 50% of his silver to buy Bitcoin.

Getting a lot of people to hold Bitcoins is very useful for driving merchants to accept them. But the problem is that now no one in the USA at least can buy Bitcoins without have to file a report as a money transmitters. If you rely on the exchange to do this for you, you are not reading the law literally IMHO, and we are headed into nasty times where the govt will go after every undotted "i". FinCEN has fines with interest for not filing. And Bitcoiners can't earn them just by downloading the client to their regular computer either.

So maybe the demographics are a fairly small market of gamblers who are not that astute about the risks they face with the law. How many Bitcoin owners are there? I saw 10,000 figure?Is that outdated?


There is another marketvalue crushing option which causes much less resistance...

P.S. I wonder when the NSA will anonymously dump some of the massive number of private keys harvested?  

The REALLY great thing about Bitcoin is there NO experts.

The established financial media (Economist, New Statesman et al) are all calling BTC's exponential growth a bubble - a crash waiting to happen. This may or may not be true. Bitcoin is not a stock.

Seasoned traders are all calling the top way too early and getting back in when BTC bounces back and carries on where it left off. Bitcoin is not like any other currency.

The clever people were those who bought and held, through the 2011 crash, through the flash crashes of the last few weeks and who continue to hold.

There are those who are trading and saying they are trading well but in my humble experience an upwards market will reward everyone. If you've lost money on BTC any time this year you truly are a bad trader!

This is all new territory. Whether the US government tries to stamp it out of existence or whether it becomes a fiat currency, no-one can be sure.

We can only point to analogies and guess.

Buy what you can spare, forget about it and enjoy the ride, that's my advice

Litecoin might be a lot more stable in the future, and offer more of a stable payment system.  You could exchange Bitcoin into Litecoin and vice versa; cash out to Litecoin when you wanna make a purchase, and when you receive Litecoin, put it back into Bitcoin for savings, or keep some around for more spending.  Also, there's this beta software called Ripple which acts as a middle-man for debt-based trading.  I don't think Bitcoin is doomed all together; it may be tough as a reliable payment service, but it is phenomenal as a store of value.  Kinda like gold and silver, where gold may be more volatile than silver, so you'd rather keep your savings in gold and spend with silver.

I reckon you can play with em for another year. Govs will ban em fo shiz - Embagos, Can't tax them, but until they are still flying under the radar they are all good 

Im too lazy to look for the link, but theres US ISP providers accepting BTC as payment. They are becoming popular now. It is nothing but up sky high for BTC.

My point about Bitcoin being doomed over the next years remains in play. The main claim I am making is that its value can never be stable. And the FinCEN has ruled on March 13 that if you use Bitcoin to exchange between it and currency, then you can not be anonymous you must report as a money transmitter. Thus without stable value, Bitcoin is doomed as an anonymous currency (which is the main point of P2P currency!), and will suffer booms&busts that prevent mainstream adoption. If someone releases a better alternative that is able to smooth volatility, then it could defeat Bitcoin driving its value down from nosebleed levels. I have released a design specification for such a competing system.

anonymint.org or anonycash.org or anonycoin.org is the my design specification for a way to fix Bitcoin so that there will be a more stable value and so people don't have to exchange in and out, and can use it as a currency for goods and services and keep their value in it without fear of huge swings in value. Changing from a speculative investment to a real currency.

You can't expect there to not be speculation when the design of the system inherently encourages speculation.

You need an algorithmic solution that discourages speculation. I have proposed one, which I think is superior to the discussions about StableCoin in the other areas of this forum.

agreed. wish more people had this mentality. it was a major part of the original idea / purpose. right now it's so speculative with so many people focused on buying now selling at some point in the future and becoming rich. the ideals that it will become mainstream are great. the hopes that the spot price goes to $100 or $1000+ once more users are brought in and start using actually merit previous ponzi claims.