Maximum role of Government? - page 19.

ascent

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:52:59 PM

So... Let me get this straight. You believe, that because there is evil in the world, we must give someone ultimate power over us, so that that evil does not take over?

Ultimate power? No. There are distinctions to be made here. No time right no though. Maybe later.

myrkul

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 02:50:07 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Individually or on a national scale? I do it everyday on an individual scale by not harming anyone who doesn't try to harm another, and by involving myself when individuals attempt to harm others. I get the feeling that's not what you meant though. Cheesy

The world is not necessarily composed of an army of BitMoles.

So... Let me get this straight. You believe, that because there is evil in the world, we must give someone ultimate power over us, so that that evil does not take over?

myrkul

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 02:44:44 PM

That's nice and all, but who enforces that principle consistently?

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 12:29:53 PM

Ahh, the statist mind.

Ok, let me see if I can explain this. As the name implies, the NAP is a principle. As such, there is no, and it needs no, over-arching body to govern its use. It applies wherever you are, no matter whose property you are on, everywhere, and for all time.

Perhaps your problem is that you have no principles, and thus cannot see how one would be applied?

Quote from: ?? on ??

Individually or on a national scale? I do it everyday on an individual scale by not harming anyone who doesn't try to harm another, and by involving myself when individuals attempt to harm others. I get the feeling that's not what you meant though. Cheesy

Everyone does it on an individual scale, everywhere.

ascent

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Individually or on a national scale? I do it everyday on an individual scale by not harming anyone who doesn't try to harm another, and by involving myself when individuals attempt to harm others. I get the feeling that's not what you meant though. Cheesy

The world is not necessarily composed of an army of BitMoles.

ascent

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:39:05 PM

Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 02:35:58 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:20:19 PM

That isn't to say that he can freely murder on his property, because he is, at that point, not leaving someone alone. I see a murder about to go down, I can stop it.

Who says you can stop it?

To quote Rothbard:

Quote

"No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory."

That's nice and all, but who enforces that principle consistently?

myrkul

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 02:35:58 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:20:19 PM

That isn't to say that he can freely murder on his property, because he is, at that point, not leaving someone alone. I see a murder about to go down, I can stop it.

Who says you can stop it?

To quote Rothbard:

Quote

"No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory."

ascent

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:20:19 PM

That isn't to say that he can freely murder on his property, because he is, at that point, not leaving someone alone. I see a murder about to go down, I can stop it.

Who says you can stop it?

myrkul

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 02:10:48 PM

Your fabled system is not a system, except on your property. Unless of course you are coercing your neighbor to use the same system. But by the rules of your system, coercion is not allowed.

That's the beauty. It doesn't have to be a system. As long as he leaves me alone, it doesn't matter what he does on his property. As long as I leave him alone, the same applies. That isn't to say that he can freely murder on his property, because he is, at that point, not leaving someone alone. I see a murder about to go down, I can stop it.

ascent

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 02:02:08 PM

So, why don't you tell me how what I propose is any different than today, in 'stopping' people from doing anything?

It's different because what you propose is not necessarily what your neighbor proposes. In fact, either you're proposing that your neighbor abides by your system, or you are not.

Your fabled system is not a system, except on your property. Unless of course you are coercing your neighbor to use the same system. But by the rules of your system, coercion is not allowed.

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 01:55:19 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 01:38:27 PM

How much would it cost to shut you up permanently? I'll start a collection.

I can amend my fee structure to include permanently shutting up if you would like.

You were doing so well, though. AyeYo, on the other hand, I am certain could make a large bundle.

So, why don't you tell me how what I propose is any different than today, in 'stopping' people from doing anything?

ascent

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 01:38:27 PM

How much would it cost to shut you up permanently? I'll start a collection.

I can amend my fee structure to include permanently shutting up if you would like.

myrkul

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Quote from: AyeYo on July 12, 2011, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 01:32:44 PM

Short answer: Those who do not follow it will be summarily shot, by the person they are attempting to coerce. Long answer: read the rest of my posts.

Yea, so basically you have no realistic way to deal with this issue and we're back to where your world always ends up: the man with the biggest gun makes the rules.

Good lord man, you CAN NOT be this dense and still manage to dress yourself in the morning. I am forced to conclude you are intentionally trolling. How much would it cost to shut you up permanently? I'll start a collection.

AyeYo

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 01:32:44 PM

Short answer: Those who do not follow it will be summarily shot, by the person they are attempting to coerce. Long answer: read the rest of my posts.

Yea, so basically you have no realistic way to deal with this issue and we're back to where your world always ends up: the man with the biggest gun makes the rules.

myrkul

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Quote from: AyeYo on July 12, 2011, 01:27:59 PM

Your response is useless. If I'm wrong, then give a detailed explanation and refute what I said.

I have, in 3 or four other threads, and every one of these 16 pages.

Quote from: AyeYo on July 12, 2011, 01:22:51 PM

Since your principle is just a principle and is backed up by no authority, force, or threat, it's uselss because people have no incentive to follow it and will not do so unless they were already inclined to follow it by personal beliefs.

Short answer: Those who do not follow it will be summarily shot, by the person they are attempting to coerce. Long answer: read the rest of my posts.

AyeYo

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Your response is useless. If I'm wrong, then give a detailed explanation and refute what I said.

myrkul

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Quote from: AyeYo on July 12, 2011, 01:22:51 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 12:41:28 PM

In what way is that different from today?

Since your principle is just a principle and is backed up by no authority, force, or threat, it's uselss because people have no incentive to follow it and will not do so unless they were already inclined to follow it by personal beliefs.

Wrong. Just wrong. Seriously, Don't talk about that which you are completely ignorant of.

AyeYo

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Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 12:41:28 PM

In what way is that different from today?

Well it's massively different in that, today, if someone violates a law they will be hunted down and prosecuted by the centralized entity which established the law. This threat of great negative outcomes keeps more people in line than would otherwise stay in line if the threat didn't exist.

Since your principle is just a principle and is backed up by no authority, force, or threat, it's uselss because people have no incentive to follow it and will not do so unless they were already inclined to follow it by personal beliefs.

myrkul

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Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 12, 2011, 12:55:25 PM

Statist: How do you force people not to use force?
Libertarian: You don't. You convince them.
Statist: That won't work. People are often unreasonable.
Libertarian: so then you deny them opportunities
Statist: What do you mean?
Libertarian: Don't talk to them. Don't invite them to parties. Don't loan them money, buy or sell from them.
Statist: that isn't a strong enough incentive.
Libertarian: I gotta go.
Statist: Wait!

I'm going to tell that at parties. Of course, it will only get a laugh at Porcfest.

billyjoeallen

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Statist: How do you force people not to use force?
Libertarian: You don't. You convince them.
Statist: That won't work. People are often unreasonable.
Libertarian: so then you deny them opportunities
Statist: What do you mean?
Libertarian: Don't talk to them. Don't invite them to parties. Don't loan them money, buy or sell from them.
Statist: that isn't a strong enough incentive.
Libertarian: I gotta go.
Statist: Wait!

myrkul

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Quote from: ascent on July 12, 2011, 12:35:27 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 12, 2011, 12:29:53 PM

As such, there is no, and it needs no, over-arching body to govern its use. It applies wherever you are, no matter whose property you are on, everywhere, and for all time.

In other words, it means nothing. Everyone is entirely at the whim of whether any one individual believes, pretends to believe, or does not believe in the PRINCIPLE. Obviously, there will be individuals of all stripes. As you've stated, there is no NAP law.

In what way is that different from today?

FYI:the original mouseover text said: "Sometimes I'm terrified to realize how many options other people have."

Topic: Maximum role of Government? - page 19. (Read 28705 times)