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Topic: Memory is cheap - - page 3. (Read 2983 times)

member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
May 11, 2016, 08:31:55 AM
#51
These people are not a part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, certainly not as far as nodes are concerned. So why are we even talking about them?
You're the one who started talking about them, not me. I was making an example of subjective view on money, the figure $30 is arbitrary. Re-read my initial statement.

So you're not talking about poor people in third world countries?
Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?
What are you trying to say?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
May 11, 2016, 08:31:01 AM
#50
Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?

Just curious, how many people who consider $30 a large sum of money currently run nodes? How would it matter if Angola got a few? Describe in detail plz.



My point either... Roll Eyes
if they cant afford 30$, they probably dont have internet or even a computer, so... whats the point? they wont be using bitcoin anyway.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 11, 2016, 08:21:45 AM
#49
These people are not a part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, certainly not as far as nodes are concerned. So why are we even talking about them?
You're the one who started talking about them, not me. I was making an example of subjective view on money, the figure $30 is arbitrary. Re-read my initial statement.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
May 11, 2016, 08:18:58 AM
#48
If X amount of people consider Y to be a large sum of money and Y is required to run a node, then obviously people from X won't be running a node. I'm not sure why you posted a map of the nodes though. As for that $30 example, take a look at any country where the minimum daily wage is <$1.

So people living on <$1 a day will never run a node, not even if we cut the blocksize in half.
Further, those living on <$1 a day have less interest (or use for) bitcoins than they do for 20% discount on Bentleys or Panamanian shell corporations.
These people are not a part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, certainly not as far as nodes are concerned. So why are we even talking about them?
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 11, 2016, 08:10:31 AM
#47
The good news is we have a long way to go.  14nm is 140 angstrom.  An atom is only about 1 angstrom in diameter.  So, there remains tons of room for size reduction before we get to the atom.  Looks like memory is going to be even cheaper.
Depending on who you quote you have: (so yes)
Not a problem at all.  One atom has many electrons.  Electron 'spin' has been used as a memory in the past.  So, the lower limit actually goes lower than the atomic level.
You make it sound like switching to that would be easy.

I don't care one bit if poor countries can't keep up with the cost to make a reliable network.  If only first world countries can afford to make nodes, and those nodes enable a successful cryptocurrency network, I just don't care that Zimbabwei is left out of participation.  Bitcoin is not here for the purpose of advancing socialism.  I don't like a network designed so that it will run on 'shit' hardware for the purpose of assuring everyone can participate.  It is not an important aspect of cryptocurrency that we assure all the downtrodden can have an equal chance to contribute to the network.
So you want to restrict nodes to only developed places (1st world countries)? So the end result is even further centralizing Bitcoin than it already is, correct? The reasoning is that you hope that: more capacity = more users = higher prices, right?

Just curious, how many people who consider $30 a large sum of money currently run nodes? How would it matter if Angola got a few? Describe in detail plz.
If X amount of people consider Y to be a large sum of money and Y is required to run a node, then obviously people from X would not be running a node in the first place. I'm not sure why you posted a map of the nodes though. As for that $30 example, take a look at any country where the minimum daily wage is <$1.


bitcoin nodes will grow up like it deserve Wink
No. There's no financial incentive to run one. While it might be true that: more users == more nodes, we would be just in the area of speculation.
sr. member
Activity: 381
Merit: 250
May 11, 2016, 08:03:23 AM
#46
The good news is we have a long way to go.  14nm is 140 angstrom.  An atom is only about 1 angstrom in diameter.  So, there remains tons of room for size reduction before we get to the atom.  Looks like memory is going to be even cheaper. 

exactly, cheaper and with a lot more of capacity, so in the end, there will be no excuse to run a node, yes? well now we just need that our isp cheapen prices also with better bandwith and bitcoin nodes will grow up like it deserve Wink
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
May 11, 2016, 07:46:43 AM
#45
Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?

Just curious, how many people who consider $30 a large sum of money currently run nodes? How would it matter if Angola got a few? Describe in detail plz.

hero member
Activity: 874
Merit: 1000
May 11, 2016, 07:22:44 AM
#44
25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  
The problem arises when you reach the size of 1 atom.

The good news is we have a long way to go.  14nm is 140 angstrom.  An atom is only about 1 angstrom in diameter.  So, there remains tons of room for size reduction before we get to the atom.  Looks like memory is going to be even cheaper. 
hero member
Activity: 874
Merit: 1000
May 11, 2016, 07:17:35 AM
#43
25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  
The problem arises when you reach the size of 1 atom.

Not a problem at all.  One atom has many electrons.  Electron 'spin' has been used as a memory in the past.  So, the lower limit actually goes lower than the atomic level.


I don't think memory capacity will continue to go down like the chart for the last 20 years.  It will go down however.  Now, memory is so fucking cheap it is shocking.  I once paid $100 / Megabyte (RAM).  Now when I buy 128GB flash for $30 I laugh my head off.  

As for bandwidth - the arguments here are hard to accept.
Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?

I don't care one bit if poor countries can't keep up with the cost to make a reliable network.  If only first world countries can afford to make nodes, and those nodes enable a successful cryptocurrency network, I just don't care that Zimbabwei is left out of participation.  Bitcoin is not here for the purpose of advancing socialism.  I don't like a network designed so that it will run on 'shit' hardware for the purpose of assuring everyone can participate.  It is not an important aspect of cryptocurrency that we assure all the downtrodden can have an equal chance to contribute to the network. 
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 11, 2016, 06:51:29 AM
#42
Memory will only gets cheaper and cheaper because there are so many new things coming up.
Why are you not happy about it is better then paying the biggest price.
You didn't read a single post in the thread, did you (e.g. "why are you not happy about this")? Designing software with an optimistic view on growth rates ends up with disaster.
sr. member
Activity: 271
Merit: 250
May 11, 2016, 06:48:19 AM
#41
Memory will only gets cheaper and cheaper because there are so many new things coming up.
Why are you not happy about it is better then paying the biggest price.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 11, 2016, 06:43:56 AM
#40
25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  
The problem arises when you reach the size of 1 atom.

I don't think memory capacity will continue to go down like the chart for the last 20 years.  It will go down however.  Now, memory is so fucking cheap it is shocking.  I once paid $100 / Megabyte (RAM).  Now when I buy 128GB flash for $30 I laugh my head off.  

As for bandwidth - the arguments here are hard to accept.
Again, it comes down to where the user is from. While $30 might seem like a small amount in the US, it is a big amount in remote places in the world. It comes down to whether and by how much you want to restrict node usage. Do you want nodes only to be run by people in 1st world countries?

i think better solution for this could be cd or pendrive with the copy of ledger which can be released on yearly basis. So that the one who like to host own wallet can download remaining few blocks within few hours.
Nothing prevents you from selling one, but it will get outdated pretty quickly.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
May 11, 2016, 06:18:24 AM
#39
I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.
i think better solution for this could be cd or pendrive with the copy of ledger which can be released on yearly basis. So that the one who like to host own wallet can download remaining few blocks within few hours.
hero member
Activity: 874
Merit: 1000
May 11, 2016, 06:12:28 AM
#38
Memory in the past wasn't cheap but because people can make smaller chips with more memory on it. The
old ones will become very cheap. And after a year the newer ones gets cheaper because there is a new
generation.

Yeah that's not strange why it's getting cheaper and cheaper because new technology is coming.
There are allot of things that changed in a short period not only the memory went smaller and larger amount of GB or TB.
But the whole computer has grown very strong.

It sure is nice to have you two geniuses to help out.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
May 11, 2016, 05:51:33 AM
#37
Yeah that's not strange why it's getting cheaper and cheaper because new technology is coming.
There are allot of things that changed in a short period not only the memory went smaller and larger amount of GB or TB.
But the whole computer has grown very strong.
hero member
Activity: 874
Merit: 1000
May 11, 2016, 05:28:55 AM
#36

Also in general, assuming that capacity increases of the past decades can be extrapolated into the future without any decrease in the growth rate is science fiction. There are physical limits in miniaturization. We are already very close to these limits.
25 years ago when circuit feature size was 1 micron - we were saying the exact same thing.  I really don't know how anyone is doing 14um.  That seems totally impossible.  But - whatever, they are doing it.  

I don't think memory capacity will continue to go down like the chart for the last 20 years.  It will go down however.  Now, memory is so fucking cheap it is shocking.  I once paid $100 / Megabyte (RAM).  Now when I buy 128GB flash for $30 I laugh my head off.  

As for bandwidth - the arguments here are hard to accept.  Some large portion of the Internet bandwidth is streaming porn.  I am pretty sure the purpose of Bitcoin exceeds the purpose of watching another very large black man vigorously pound some poor teenage pussy into oblivion.  We already have very significant bandwidth availability.  Maybe some of it needs to be redirected - and it will as soon as the 'importance' of bitcoin transactions exceeds the 'importance' of having a look at sex sites.  

sr. member
Activity: 316
Merit: 250
May 11, 2016, 04:26:43 AM
#35
I think the larger problem is network bandwidth rather than hard device capacity. Even with high speed Internet connection (> 20 Mbit/sec) it can take a couple of days to download the block chain from scratch.
lol.  You only have to download the chain one time - forever.  

People sit in their living room all over the planet streaming movies every night and you worry about 2MB every ten minutes?  Clearly you failed your math A levels.  

No you don't just download the chain and be done with it. A full node does not only download blocks - it also receives and relays unconfirmed transactions and sends out blocks to other SPV clients.

Your node could easily send out terabytes of data in 1 month if you don't restrict it.

This node has been up for only 6 days and has already sent out 144 GB.



How do you restrict the amount of data a node can process?

I want to set up a node but the location I live in has poor internet connectivity. The only way I can set up a node is through a server hosting provider. There's a limit on how much data I can afford to pay for each month, so I want to put a cap on my monthly data.
legendary
Activity: 883
Merit: 1005
May 11, 2016, 03:40:35 AM
#34
Its not memory were worried about its the bandwidth, latency and orphan rates.  
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 11, 2016, 03:38:07 AM
#33
Glad to see you've admitted the errors of your ways and now agree with the original post.  It takes a big person to admit they were wrong.  
I see this as a virtue, and as a rational person (I'm trying) it makes sense to admit to wrong and try to improve.

Next time - don't launch your disagreement with a personal attack.  

Sorry your upload bandwidth prices (from 2 years ago) are bad.  
I have not listed any prices? I have just elaborated as to why the internet speed in some countries are (e.g. 50/5) as I've asked.

Now get out of Zimbabwei if you want to run a node.
I don't live in such a country. My node works fine, even though it is not as useful as Soros Shorts's node (mine is not able to provide that much data).

How does RAM help my bandwidth cost?
RAM is not the only type of memory. OP is talking about storage.
sr. member
Activity: 467
Merit: 267
May 11, 2016, 03:30:46 AM
#32
Quote
Somehow we worry about going to 2MB/block for fear of 'bloat'
Yes ... because of the network usage ...

Quote
yet this is how much memory costs:

How does RAM help my bandwidth cost?
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