Merchant's cost of accepting cash | Bitcointalksearch.org

Shibboleth

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Quote from: Bitcoin++ on May 14, 2014, 01:09:42 AM

How much does it cost the merchant to accept cash?

It takes time to count notes and coins, and to give back change.
Counterfeits might be a problem.
Money needs to be counted at the end of the day, which takes time.
Employees may steal a little a bit as the sum seldom adds up anyway.
Money needs to be transported to the bank securely, which isn't cheap.
Cash pays no interest until deposited in bank.
Other costs as well?
How much does this all add up to?

My local supermarket has a lcd monitor at each counter where it shows the price (among other info). It could very easily also display a bitcoin QR code. Assuming zero confirmations is secure enough, it would take only seconds to make a payment. The supermarket could exchange bitcoins to euros several times a day, and only face fees and spread which adds up to 1% or so. Would a payment in bitcoin be more lucrative for the supermarket than cash?

Just going back to the OP. Yes, it costs businesses money, certainly in the UK to deal with cash. For example when a business actually deposits the money into their account at the branch level they are changed a fee. HSBC is instance charges its banking customers 60pence for every 100.00 pounds. If a small business turns over allot of cash this fee can add up to hundreds or even thousands of pounds

beetcoin

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Quote from: TheButterZone on June 14, 2014, 02:52:58 PM

Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

Or, why acquire bitcoin in the first place, because it might be worth 999 decillion dollars in the future? At what point do you stop converting your fiat to something you will never use because you're waiting for it to be worth infinitely more?

i think his point was that if bitcoin were ubiquitous like paper notes, and were the main medium of exchange for goods/services, then people would not spend it.. which doesn't help with growth in the economy. it can't be used like the way cash is for that reason.

ShakyhandsBTCer

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: DannyHamilton on June 15, 2014, 02:46:04 PM

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 15, 2014, 12:51:33 PM

If you have a small amount of inflation, you do have a small incentive to buy something sooner rather then later if you are going to purchase it regardless (say for example you have a refrigerator that will need to be replaced in the next 6 months, you may purchase now instead of later to get a better, more efficient refrigerator as you think the price will rise slightly by the time you are forced to buy one). Small inflation also gives you the incentive to invest "smartly" (in investments that are likely to produce a positive return) and to innovate (if you invest the time, energy and money to make something better then what exists today then you will earn a profit) and gives you a disincentive to hold money "under the mattress"

This is not correct.

There is no incentive to spend inflationary cash. That same cash could be used to acquire something like bitcoin (or gold) instead of the refrigerator. There is no incentive to purchase the refrigerator sooner than later, since by spending your inflationary cash, you are actually spending the deflationary bitcoins (or gold) that you could have purchased with that cash instead.

Even if you use that cash to purchase bitcoin (or gold) you still have the same incentive to spend it sooner rather then later regardless on what you are spending it on.

LostDutchman

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The nice part about cash is that no one knows how much you have received unless you over-do it.

Same is true of Bitcoin if you do it right.

Would you like to know more?

Beliathon

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https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 14, 2014, 01:19:38 AM

I've never actually thought about it this way, but I guess you're right. Theft from tills by employees is a big problem.

Theft from employees via employers [= "profits margin"] is a far, far, far, far, far bigger problem. Ditch the polyglot oligarch parasites, my fellow wage-slaves. It will only continue getting worse until you wake up. Yes, you. We are the ones we've been waiting for.

Our time has come.

Meuh6879

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Quote from: phillipsjk on May 14, 2014, 01:15:07 AM

If it got really big really fast: it would replace wire transfers, not credit cards/cash.

that's why power of mining is important for futur ... more faster network if difficulty decrease because of the needed speed and integrated transaction in block.

now, 10 per day, it has a heavy block with 900 transaction : 2 transaction per second.

in progress ... and we have a strong marge of progress.

Sniar

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It's like gold , it might go up or down in future but cash has inflation Sad

So it's up to you to decide on what to do with it , either invest more or spend it

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 15, 2014, 12:51:33 PM

If you have a small amount of inflation, you do have a small incentive to buy something sooner rather then later if you are going to purchase it regardless (say for example you have a refrigerator that will need to be replaced in the next 6 months, you may purchase now instead of later to get a better, more efficient refrigerator as you think the price will rise slightly by the time you are forced to buy one). Small inflation also gives you the incentive to invest "smartly" (in investments that are likely to produce a positive return) and to innovate (if you invest the time, energy and money to make something better then what exists today then you will earn a profit) and gives you a disincentive to hold money "under the mattress"

This is not correct.

There is no incentive to spend inflationary cash. That same cash could be used to acquire something like bitcoin (or gold) instead of the refrigerator. There is no incentive to purchase the refrigerator sooner than later, since by spending your inflationary cash, you are actually spending the deflationary bitcoins (or gold) that you could have purchased with that cash instead.

TEDmachine

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"Why spend bitcoin, if it'll be worth more tomorrow? Spend cash, it will be worth less in the future."

ShakyhandsBTCer

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: DannyHamilton on June 15, 2014, 12:52:15 AM

Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 15, 2014, 12:49:02 AM

Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

This is an issue with bitcoin. With people thinking that it will increase in price in the future, it makes people hesitant to spend it unless they absolutely need to.

Sounds like a benefit, not an issue.

Instead of being afraid that you will lose purchasing power if you don't waste all your money (and all your borrowing power) on useless trinkets that have no longevity, you're encouraged to think about your purchases, buy things that will last, and avoid wasting money on things you don't need and don't really want.

Besides, in reality, you have the exact same problem with any money you spend (bitcoin, U.S. dollars, or otherwise). The existence of bitcoin makes me hesitant to spend my U.S. dollars unless I absolutely need to (because, if I don't waste my U.S. dollars on useless trash, then I'll have more U.S. dollars available to exchange for bitcoins that may increase in value).

The issue with this is that if people think the value of their coins will appreciate indefinitely then they will not spend unless they absolutely have to. People will only buy necessities and will in general live a lower standard of living. The incentives to invest your bitcoin are there but are diminished by the fact that you expect a return by keeping them "under your mattress"

If you have a small amount of inflation, you do have a small incentive to buy something sooner rather then later if you are going to purchase it regardless (say for example you have a refrigerator that will need to be replaced in the next 6 months, you may purchase now instead of later to get a better, more efficient refrigerator as you think the price will rise slightly by the time you are forced to buy one). Small inflation also gives you the incentive to invest "smartly" (in investments that are likely to produce a positive return) and to innovate (if you invest the time, energy and money to make something better then what exists today then you will earn a profit) and gives you a disincentive to hold money "under the mattress"

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: ShakyhandsBTCer on June 15, 2014, 12:49:02 AM

Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

This is an issue with bitcoin. With people thinking that it will increase in price in the future, it makes people hesitant to spend it unless they absolutely need to.

Sounds like a benefit, not an issue.

Instead of being afraid that you will lose purchasing power if you don't waste all your money (and all your borrowing power) on useless trinkets that have no longevity, you're encouraged to think about your purchases, buy things that will last, and avoid wasting money on things you don't need and don't really want.

Besides, in reality, you have the exact same problem with any money you spend (bitcoin, U.S. dollars, or otherwise). The existence of bitcoin makes me hesitant to spend my U.S. dollars unless I absolutely need to (because, if I don't waste my U.S. dollars on useless trash, then I'll have more U.S. dollars available to exchange for bitcoins that may increase in value).

ShakyhandsBTCer

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Activity: 448

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

This is an issue with bitcoin. With people thinking that it will increase in price in the future, it makes people hesitant to spend it unless they absolutely need to.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

To acquire other things that you need or want today, obviously.

Seems like a rather silly question.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: Catmoonglow on June 14, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

Or, why acquire bitcoin in the first place, because it might be worth 999 decillion dollars in the future? At what point do you stop converting your fiat to something you will never use because you're waiting for it to be worth infinitely more?

Catmoonglow

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the question is: why spend bitcoin if it will be worth more in the future?)

ShakyhandsBTCer

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Activity: 448

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 14, 2014, 01:19:38 AM

I've never actually thought about it this way, but I guess you're right. Theft from tills by employees is a big problem. Counterfeiting is also a massive issue which Bitcoin solves too. I think it's only natural that digital payments in some form will replace coins and notes, but I guess half of cash transactions are actually done electronically with either bank transfers or credit/debit cards as well anyway.

This could easily be changed in the future.

With advances in CPU speeds, and increases in amounts of bandwidth that is easily accessible to consumers the block size could be increased.

The block size cap was put in place with the users in mind as if the block size cap was loo large people's computers could not handle it and they would not use Bitcoin.

LostDutchman

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Quote from: twiifm on May 14, 2014, 01:56:41 AM

Well they can't refuse cash so they have to accept it if that's what the customer wants to pay.

How can employees steal if the they use cash registers? If the receipts don't balance out then the employee has to pay out of pocket. This was common when I used to work as waiter.

Most businesses don't care about interest. They usually just have checking account. They need cashflow for payroll, supplies, pay vendors, etc..

Yes they can refuse cash and any number of merchants, especially insurance companies do just that.

ranlo

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Quote from: Elwar on May 14, 2014, 04:37:51 AM

The IRS will steal your money (more than just via taxes) if you deal mainly in cash.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-heavy-hand-of-the-irs/2014/04/30/7a56ca9e-cfc5-11e3-a6b1-45c4dffb85a6_story.html

Quote

Because 35 percent of Schott’s Supermarket’s receipts are in cash, Terry and Sandy make frequent trips to the bank to avoid tempting actual criminals by having large sums at the store. Besides, their insurance policy covers no cash loss in excess of $10,000.

In 2010 and 2012, IRS agents visited the store and examined Terry’s and Sandy’s conduct. In 2012, the IRS notified them that it identified “no violations” of banking laws. But on Jan. 22, 2013, Terry and Sandy discovered that the IRS had obtained a secret warrant and emptied the store’s bank account.

That is ridiculous. "You did nothing wrong and as far as we know are operating under the law... but we're going to steal all your money anyways!" This is how businesses get destroyed. This could be detrimental. How do they pay all their bills if they were putting all their income in the bank? How do they pay suppliers to continue going on? If they did nothing wrong, they shouldn't be subjected to these things.

murraypaul

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Quote from: Bitcoin++ on May 14, 2014, 01:09:42 AM

How much does it cost the merchant to accept cash?
[...]My local supermarket has a lcd monitor at each counter where it shows the price (among other info). It could very easily also display a bitcoin QR code.

Supermarkets I go to have very simple two or three line LCD price displays.
They couldn't display a QR code.
So you'd have a significant investment cost to replace them with terminals that could. And, of course, of developing, testing and validating the software.
You'd also have the issue of ensuring that you had sufficient phone network coverage at the tills for all major networks, otherwise people wouldn't be able to pay.
You might save on per-transaction costs, but there would be significant up-front costs.
At the moment, would there be enough Bitcoin transactions to recoup those costs?
Plus, are people currently paying in cash likely to be those who would switch to paying digitally? Isn't it more likely to be those customers who are already paying with debit or credit cards?

zimmah

legendary

Activity: 1106

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Quote from: Bitcoin++ on May 14, 2014, 01:09:42 AM

How much does it cost the merchant to accept cash?

It takes time to count notes and coins, and to give back change.
Counterfeits might be a problem.
Money needs to be counted at the end of the day, which takes time.
Employees may steal a little a bit as the sum seldom adds up anyway.
Money needs to be transported to the bank securely, which isn't cheap.
Cash pays no interest until deposited in bank.
Other costs as well?
How much does this all add up to?

My local supermarket has a lcd monitor at each counter where it shows the price (among other info). It could very easily also display a bitcoin QR code. Assuming zero confirmations is secure enough, it would take only seconds to make a payment. The supermarket could exchange bitcoins to euros several times a day, and only face fees and spread which adds up to 1% or so. Would a payment in bitcoin be more lucrative for the supermarket than cash?

banks charge a high price for accepting cash
having cash in your registers increases the changes of armed robbery

Topic: Merchant's cost of accepting cash (Read 1609 times)