Micro transactions - confirmations? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Simon8x

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Quote from: ranochigo on October 15, 2014, 09:39:48 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on October 14, 2014, 04:53:38 PM

Quote from: Kakmakr on October 14, 2014, 08:36:57 AM

A follow up question, based on the first question.

Say, I own a faucet, and every Sunday, I want to make micro payments to say 3000 users. What would the best method be, to pay these users, and to have the least amount of transactions/miner fees?

I see many faucets, with a withdraw limit of 5000+ Satoshi and I can just imagine, that the transaction fees, would nulify the gain or reduce the profits, if it was done individually.

Do I pay less, if it's batched together, and what technology or wallet, would make the payment the cheapest for massive micro transactions? ^Grin^

faucets use https://www.microwallet.org/ they can send even 1 satoshi and it is offchain transaction check the API page for more info

That process involve trusting a third party with your BTC. If they decide to run away, you may lose all your BTC. You could make a withdrawal limit of 5500 satoshi for example and send the payments every week by batches. The transaction fees can be reduced.

If you don't want to trust a third party and use offchain transaction, the best option is to group the payments together and make a few huge transactions like what moonbit does https://blockchain.info/address/12Zdr4CqdaLCngZJgLWVLYbuWNc2NNKKk5?filter=1

ranochigo

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 14, 2014, 04:53:38 PM

Quote from: Kakmakr on October 14, 2014, 08:36:57 AM

A follow up question, based on the first question.

Say, I own a faucet, and every Sunday, I want to make micro payments to say 3000 users. What would the best method be, to pay these users, and to have the least amount of transactions/miner fees?

I see many faucets, with a withdraw limit of 5000+ Satoshi and I can just imagine, that the transaction fees, would nulify the gain or reduce the profits, if it was done individually.

Do I pay less, if it's batched together, and what technology or wallet, would make the payment the cheapest for massive micro transactions? ^Grin^

faucets use https://www.microwallet.org/ they can send even 1 satoshi and it is offchain transaction check the API page for more info

That process involve trusting a third party with your BTC. If they decide to run away, you may lose all your BTC. You could make a withdrawal limit of 5500 satoshi for example and send the payments every week by batches. The transaction fees can be reduced.

pooya87

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Quote from: Kakmakr on October 14, 2014, 08:36:57 AM

A follow up question, based on the first question.

Say, I own a faucet, and every Sunday, I want to make micro payments to say 3000 users. What would the best method be, to pay these users, and to have the least amount of transactions/miner fees?

I see many faucets, with a withdraw limit of 5000+ Satoshi and I can just imagine, that the transaction fees, would nulify the gain or reduce the profits, if it was done individually.

Do I pay less, if it's batched together, and what technology or wallet, would make the payment the cheapest for massive micro transactions? ^Grin^

faucets use https://www.microwallet.org/ they can send even 1 satoshi and it is offchain transaction check the API page for more info

pooya87

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Quote from: Peter882 on October 08, 2014, 10:00:56 PM

...... create a double-spend transaction with fee............Or you could simply send that unconfirmed 0.05 btc to yourself with a 0.0001 fee to solve all the problem all by yourself.

teach me how to do these 2 please or give a link

dothebeats

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Micro transactions do confirm even without a fee, but usually within a couple of days or even weeks (and sometimes they don't). Miners usually don't 'prioritize' transactions that doesn't include a tx fee. You have to wait until that transaction confirms, or it may not confirm at all.

Kakmakr

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A follow up question, based on the first question.

Say, I own a faucet, and every Sunday, I want to make micro payments to say 3000 users. What would the best method be, to pay these users, and to have the least amount of transactions/miner fees?

I see many faucets, with a withdraw limit of 5000+ Satoshi and I can just imagine, that the transaction fees, would nulify the gain or reduce the profits, if it was done individually.

Do I pay less, if it's batched together, and what technology or wallet, would make the payment the cheapest for massive micro transactions? ^Grin^

Peter882

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Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 03:26:22 PM

Not sure how the miners handle this internally, but usually when people spend unconfirmed change and pay a regular or normal fee both TX get confirmed within the next or very few blocks.

Thanks for your info.

Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 03:41:27 PM

Quote from: ezreal on October 08, 2014, 03:34:42 PM

-snip-

is that even worth it?

For the miners? Sure, its not like we are anywhere close to the 1 MB blocksize limit, so there is enough room. Any TX that pays and gets confirmed is money in the wallet. There is no downside or at least I am not aware of one currently.

It is good for the general bitcoin users as well.

Say if someone send you 0.05 btc but for some reason didn't attach a 0.0001 fee, you may need to wait for a few days without luck, contact the sender, explain the problem, persuade and teach him to create a double-spend transaction with fee.
Or you could simply send that unconfirmed 0.05 btc to yourself with a 0.0001 fee to solve all the problem all by yourself.

shorena

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Quote from: ezreal on October 08, 2014, 03:34:42 PM

-snip-

is that even worth it?

For the miners? Sure, its not like we are anywhere close to the 1 MB blocksize limit, so there is enough room. Any TX that pays and gets confirmed is money in the wallet. There is no downside or at least I am not aware of one currently.

ezreal

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Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 03:26:22 PM

Quote from: Peter882 on October 08, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 04:24:32 AM

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

But has this way of "considering the total tx fee of a series of transactions" been implemented by the miners yet?
I have heard of this for a very long time, but I couldn't find if it is still a proposal or if it is already working.

Not sure how the miners handle this internally, but usually when people spend unconfirmed change and pay a regular or normal fee both TX get confirmed within the next or very few blocks.

is that even worth it?

shorena

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No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: Peter882 on October 08, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 04:24:32 AM

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

But has this way of "considering the total tx fee of a series of transactions" been implemented by the miners yet?
I have heard of this for a very long time, but I couldn't find if it is still a proposal or if it is already working.

Not sure how the miners handle this internally, but usually when people spend unconfirmed change and pay a regular or normal fee both TX get confirmed within the next or very few blocks.

Peter882

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Quote from: shorena on October 08, 2014, 04:24:32 AM

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

But has this way of "considering the total tx fee of a series of transactions" been implemented by the miners yet?
I have heard of this for a very long time, but I couldn't find if it is still a proposal or if it is already working.

shorena

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No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: Kakmakr on October 08, 2014, 04:03:17 AM

So does the miners determine on their own, if they want to mine for blocks with transactions without fees?

Yes, they can even decide to not include any TX at all.

Quote from: Kakmakr on October 08, 2014, 04:03:17 AM

Or are these transactions bundled in with other transactions with fees?

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

Quote from: Kakmakr on October 08, 2014, 04:03:17 AM

Thanks for the answers so far, at least now I know, to put a minimum of 10k Satoshi's for small transactions.

Or you can wait and hope. I am currently waiting [1] for a feeless TX to go through. Its day 3 now and it might never confirm without further tricks. In general it is not wise to do this. Better pay your fees if you want your coins to move fast Wink

[1] https://www.blocktrail.com/tx/10fd41c4c86ae68c6382fd9ec0f92625b70a03d03d8ae1c4a564aa3ea03b570c

Kakmakr

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So does the miners determine on their own, if they want to mine for blocks with transactions without fees? Or are these transactions bundled in with other transactions with fees?

Thanks for the answers so far, at least now I know, to put a minimum of 10k Satoshi's for small transactions.

Buziss

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Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on October 05, 2014, 11:31:22 AM

Quote from: Buziss on October 05, 2014, 07:59:46 AM

Quote from: Pofick on October 05, 2014, 07:44:25 AM

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

But I think it can also be relayed if the miner disables default settings! Roll Eyes

Quote

If you create a redeem script, hash it, and use the hash in a P2SH output, the network sees only the hash, so it will accept the output as valid no matter what the redeem script says. This allows payment to non-standard pubkey script almost as easily as payment to standard pubkey scripts. However, when you go to spend that output, peers and miners using the default settings will check the redeem script to see whether or not it’s a standard pubkey script. If it isn’t, they won’t process it further—so it will be impossible to spend that output until you find a miner who disables the default settings.

~~MZ~~

True, and also not every nodes on the network run on the latest protocol version.
That's why some of those dust spamming transactions were able to be relayed across the network and were eventually confirmed.

Muhammed Zakir

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Quote from: Buziss on October 05, 2014, 07:59:46 AM

Quote from: Pofick on October 05, 2014, 07:44:25 AM

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

But I think it can also be relayed if the miner disables default settings! Roll Eyes

Quote

If you create a redeem script, hash it, and use the hash in a P2SH output, the network sees only the hash, so it will accept the output as valid no matter what the redeem script says. This allows payment to non-standard pubkey script almost as easily as payment to standard pubkey scripts. However, when you go to spend that output, peers and miners using the default settings will check the redeem script to see whether or not it’s a standard pubkey script. If it isn’t, they won’t process it further—so it will be impossible to spend that output until you find a miner who disables the default settings.

~~MZ~~

Buziss

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Quote from: Pofick on October 05, 2014, 07:44:25 AM

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

Pofick

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What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

dothebeats

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Standard fee for any transaction is 0.00010000 btc. As for the micro-transactions. its priority in the blockchain is very low to be confirmed as fast as other transactions on the blockchain. Micro-transactions usually take more time to confirm or not getting confirmed at all.

Buziss

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As others have already explained, free transactions do get confirmations as long as the coins are old enough. If you want to play safe and make sure the transaction will be confirmed within reasonable time, just don't change your default wallet fee setting and pay the fee your wallet client asks for.

BeginToMine

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https://www.payaccept.net/

it can be zero fee, if you keep them long enough in the wallet.

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