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Topic: Mike Hearn response to "An Open Letter to the Bitcoin Community" - page 3. (Read 2707 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken.  

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.

A few posts before this one, you said that bitcoin is broken so that we need to fix things up. Another few more posts, you said that Gavin and Hearn created XT so as to fix the 'consensus making process' that is lacking in Core. I'm not a pro on economy, tech, coding or anything above technical level on bitcoin, but I see that pushing this 8MB max block size limit isn't necessary yet. Scaling? That is too much for a scale! We don't even fill a 1MB block on most cases. .4MB is the largest I've seen even if transaction numbers peaked. And the approach of 'fixing things when the problem is present' doesn't sound appealing to me either (the approach of the Core guys), but come on, 8MB is too high for a limit. I doubt that we will ever see an eighth of that limit being filled within the next years to come.

What's the problem then? 8 mb being just a limit.

The problem is how we get there.  It looks very much like we are being steered into making a premature decision that makes it harder for us to have a say over future decisions.  We have a few devs who have created what they think is a solution to a future problem and we have coinwallet.eu trying to force the issue now.  So it looks very much like we are being pressured to make a decision when we don't need to and obviously that is creating blowback.

Well, you can say we don't need to make a decision now as much as you want but those behind Coinwallet clearly disagree and are putting their money where their mouth is. It is this "we can wait forever" attitude that is creating all this mess.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
poeEDgar,

you make some fair points.

Still, I think it is outrageous that the devs refuse
to accept even Bip 102 with its 2 MB limit.
It's clear to me they do not want main chain scaling
and that it is counter to their business interests.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


Why are you picking sides, making this a sectarian battle or sorts?  

That's just how I see the current reality.

Gavin, Mike, Jeff, some major companies, and most of the miners want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain.
Adam, Greg, and Blockstream don't.  (They've said so in both their words and actions.)  


Oh so only them signed this letter heh?

intellectual dishonesty

 Cheesy

hero member
Activity: 679
Merit: 526

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken.  

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.

A few posts before this one, you said that bitcoin is broken so that we need to fix things up. Another few more posts, you said that Gavin and Hearn created XT so as to fix the 'consensus making process' that is lacking in Core. I'm not a pro on economy, tech, coding or anything above technical level on bitcoin, but I see that pushing this 8MB max block size limit isn't necessary yet. Scaling? That is too much for a scale! We don't even fill a 1MB block on most cases. .4MB is the largest I've seen even if transaction numbers peaked. And the approach of 'fixing things when the problem is present' doesn't sound appealing to me either (the approach of the Core guys), but come on, 8MB is too high for a limit. I doubt that we will ever see an eighth of that limit being filled within the next years to come.

What's the problem then? 8 mb being just a limit.

The problem is how we get there.  It looks very much like we are being steered into making a premature decision that makes it harder for us to have a say over future decisions.  We have a few devs who have created what they think is a solution to a future problem and we have coinwallet.eu trying to force the issue now.  So it looks very much like we are being pressured to make a decision when we don't need to and obviously that is creating blowback.
sr. member
Activity: 299
Merit: 250
You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

This is irrelevant to the merits of XT or BIP101. That is the principal concern.

The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.

That everyone disagrees with someone doesn't logically entail that he is correct, or that his proposal has merit.

You're right.  Some people want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain and some people don't.  Pick a side.

Why are you picking sides, making this a sectarian battle or sorts? That's part of the problem. Some of us are trying to have a constructive discussion about the merits of proposals that have been offered, and about the merits of other potential solutions.

I want to see bitcoin scaled responsibly, incrementally over time to deal with issues of scaling as they arise....rather than hard-coding scheduled capacity increases to a level where we could never contemplate the conditions that will govern network security (1x vs 8000x, 1MB vs 8GB). It's simply irresponsible to assume that what holds true at 1MB holds true at 8GB -- that's insulting to thinking people. And it's insulting that people think we should just accept the course: recklessly increase the block size limit now, and when shit hits the fan, fork it back down. I don't want to wait until a compromise of network security forces us to soft fork the limit back down (presumably after people have lost shit tons of money).

I think no one would argue with that. The problem is much more on the Core side incapable of making any decision in a timely manner. A decision that will mitigate the risks from every point of views. Waiting or an absolute risk free solution is delusional and outright impossible as no one can 100% accurately predict the future. Of course that attitude will creates some frictions at some point in time and here we are.

Considering we have never actually threatened the block limit (and on average are at less than 50% capacity even now), I'd say that "incapable of making any decision in a timely manner" is quite inaccurate. These discussions are important, and we should keep moving the debate forward. But it's silly to act like we should have already implemented a block size limit increase that may jeopardize network security.

That is far more important than the hypothetical future situation where blocks are full.

That everyone disagrees doesn't by default make Gavin and Hearn correct; it only means they made the first attempt. While that's laudable (or nefarious, depending on your take), this doesn't mean that BIP101 merits any support. The content of their proposal must merit that support. From where I stand, it doesn't.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1352
Cashback 15%

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken.  

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.

A few posts before this one, you said that bitcoin is broken so that we need to fix things up. Another few more posts, you said that Gavin and Hearn created XT so as to fix the 'consensus making process' that is lacking in Core. I'm not a pro on economy, tech, coding or anything above technical level on bitcoin, but I see that pushing this 8MB max block size limit isn't necessary yet. Scaling? That is too much for a scale! We don't even fill a 1MB block on most cases. .4MB is the largest I've seen even if transaction numbers peaked. And the approach of 'fixing things when the problem is present' doesn't sound appealing to me either (the approach of the Core guys), but come on, 8MB is too high for a limit. I doubt that we will ever see an eighth of that limit being filled within the next years to come.

What's the problem then? 8 mb being just a limit.

Say that XT is implemented, 8 MB is present, and yet we don't get those previous 1 MB block size limit filled, but you have these 2 fellas making decisions for the whole network. 8 MB is just a limit, but the decisions on the code on the network being made only by those 2 guys? No, just no.

I'm a fan of bigger blocks, but I think 8 MB is just too much atm. If there is an option to make it flexible, that would be great.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken.  

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.

A few posts before this one, you said that bitcoin is broken so that we need to fix things up. Another few more posts, you said that Gavin and Hearn created XT so as to fix the 'consensus making process' that is lacking in Core. I'm not a pro on economy, tech, coding or anything above technical level on bitcoin, but I see that pushing this 8MB max block size limit isn't necessary yet. Scaling? That is too much for a scale! We don't even fill a 1MB block on most cases. .4MB is the largest I've seen even if transaction numbers peaked. And the approach of 'fixing things when the problem is present' doesn't sound appealing to me either (the approach of the Core guys), but come on, 8MB is too high for a limit. I doubt that we will ever see an eighth of that limit being filled within the next years to come.

What's the problem then? 8 mb being just a limit.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1352
Cashback 15%

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.

A few posts before this one, you said that bitcoin is broken so that we need to fix things up. Another few more posts, you said that Gavin and Hearn created XT so as to fix the 'consensus making process' that is lacking in Core. I'm not a pro on economy, tech, coding or anything above technical level on bitcoin, but I see that pushing this 8MB max block size limit isn't necessary yet. Scaling? That is too much for a scale! We don't even fill a 1MB block on most cases. .4MB is the largest I've seen even if transaction numbers peaked. And the approach of 'fixing things when the problem is present' doesn't sound appealing to me either (the approach of the Core guys), but come on, 8MB is too high for a limit. I doubt that we will ever see an eighth of that limit being filled within the next years to come.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


Why are you picking sides, making this a sectarian battle or sorts?  

That's just how I see the current reality.

Gavin, Mike, Jeff, some major companies, and most of the miners want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain.
Adam, Greg, and Blockstream don't.  (They've said so in both their words and actions.)

I agree with you that there are technical considerations, but I also think people aren't
cognizant of the reality of the situation.

 
hero member
Activity: 679
Merit: 526

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

You have said that bitcoin is broken and that's why XT exists, and then you changed it to core decision making is broken and that's why XT exists.  So was XT created to cure bitcoin or to cure core decision making?  Because not everyone agrees that bitcoin is broken, and in fact some very smart people think it is just fine for now and nothing needs to change.  What is working is that no one person has been able to usurp control of the process and that is why it seems chaotic when it really isn't.  When you look at any system and only see one part of it, it is very difficult to see the whole system and come to conclusions about it.  Look at our history of scientific investigation for examples.

What we have now is a healthy system with healthy discussion about a few individuals who want less discussion and are actively working to disable it for the future.  It's up to us if we empower them to do that.  I will not contribute to cutting off my own tongue.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.

His argument being: I can't be a real dictator over bitcoin (only bitcoinXT) as any body can fork the code as we just did. He has a point though.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1352
Cashback 15%

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.

They created XT so as to solve only the decision making process that is absent within Core? I see the point of scaling, but this one just got me, also those somewhat unclear intentions of Mike Hearn on wanting a 'dictator' to decide for what's best in the community.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

This is irrelevant to the merits of XT or BIP101. That is the principal concern.

The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core.  
Hard to argue with that.

That everyone disagrees with someone doesn't logically entail that he is correct, or that his proposal has merit.

You're right.  Some people want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain and some people don't.  Pick a side.

Why are you picking sides, making this a sectarian battle or sorts? That's part of the problem. Some of us are trying to have a constructive discussion about the merits of proposals that have been offered, and about the merits of other potential solutions.

I want to see bitcoin scaled responsibly, incrementally over time to deal with issues of scaling as they arise....rather than hard-coding scheduled capacity increases to a level where we could never contemplate the conditions that will govern network security (1x vs 8000x, 1MB vs 8GB). It's simply irresponsible to assume that what holds true at 1MB holds true at 8GB -- that's insulting to thinking people. And it's insulting that people think we should just accept the course: recklessly increase the block size limit now, and when shit hits the fan, fork it back down. I don't want to wait until a compromise of network security forces us to soft fork the limit back down (presumably after people have lost shit tons of money).

I think no one would argue with that. The problem is much more on the Core side incapable of making any decision in a timely manner. A decision that will mitigate the risks from every point of views. Waiting or an absolute risk free solution is delusional and outright impossible as no one can 100% accurately predict the future. Of course that attitude will creates some frictions at some point in time and here we are.
sr. member
Activity: 299
Merit: 250
You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

This is irrelevant to the merits of XT or BIP101. That is the principal concern.

The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.

That everyone disagrees with someone doesn't logically entail that he is correct, or that his proposal has merit.

You're right.  Some people want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain and some people don't.  Pick a side.

Why are you picking sides, making this a sectarian battle or sorts? That's part of the problem. Some of us are trying to have a constructive discussion about the merits of proposals that have been offered, and about the merits of other potential solutions.

I want to see bitcoin scaled responsibly, incrementally over time to deal with issues of scaling as they arise....rather than hard-coding scheduled capacity increases to a level where we could never contemplate the conditions that will govern network security (1x vs 8000x, 1MB vs 8GB). It's simply irresponsible to assume that what holds true at 1MB holds true at 8GB -- that's insulting to thinking people. And it's insulting that people think we should just accept the course: recklessly increase the block size limit now, and when shit hits the fan, fork it back down. I don't want to wait until a compromise of network security forces us to soft fork the limit back down (presumably after people have lost shit tons of money).
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!

Mike's point always has been about Core decision making process and that's why he and Gavin created XT.
hero member
Activity: 679
Merit: 526

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

Now you are moving the goal post from bitcoin is broken to the decision making process is broken, which is it?  Let me guess, both are broken!
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

This is irrelevant to the merits of XT or BIP101. That is the principal concern.

The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.

That everyone disagrees with someone doesn't logically entail that he is correct, or that his proposal has merit.

You're right.  Some people want to scale Bitcoin on the main chain and some people don't.  Pick a side.

legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
None is pushing anyone to run some code on your computer.
You are free to run the code that you prefer.

You are free to run the code from the """consensus model""" of the Bitcon Core, or the benevolent "maintainers" of the Bitcoin XT. (but there should be even other models, why not?)

what happen(very unlikely scenario) if everyone choose XT and i'm the only one remaining with core? i'm fucked right?

i think people should not only choose their solution, but should determinate together what is the best or the, less worst solution, for bitcoin, right now everyone is jumping on what's is better for him/her
sr. member
Activity: 299
Merit: 250
You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.

This is irrelevant to the merits of XT or BIP101. That is the principal concern.

The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.

That everyone disagrees with someone doesn't logically entail that he is correct, or that his proposal has merit.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?

If it wasn't broken, XT would not came out to existence and you and I wouldn't be arguing about it.


That's like saying if XYZ wasn't bad it wouldn't be illegal.  If you have nothing to hide, why do you need to hide things.  It's a straw man argument.



The reason Gavin did choose XT to implement Bip 101 is that the other developers wouldn't agree in Core. 
Hard to argue with that.
 
That isn't evidence that it is broken. 

You are in denial then. XT is a direct cause of Core decision process being broken.
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