Miners are your new slave masters - page 2.

freightjoe

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Quote from: FrueGreads on November 19, 2017, 10:11:47 AM

Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

I don't agree with this. Ultimately the final say is up to the market support. Miners are running a business, so they will stay were the profit is. The market is build on supply and demand, so if we demand bitcoin for example, like is happening right now, miners will stay in bitcoin because it's more expensive, so it gives them more profit. Yes, they might switch to some other coins from time to time (like bcash), but they will only stay there if we start selling our bitcoins and start supporting bcash.
If we don't swap our coins, they will just have to come back. If they don't, then difficulty will adjust to the new hash power, and we will still be fine. If difficulty decreases, then it will be even more profitable to mine BTC, so again, in the end, miner will be where the profit is, and the profit is where the demand is, so we are not slaves.

The miners can drive up transaction costs for you without you being able to do anything about it. The Chinese mining farms are becoming so big that you cannot hope to compete yourself.

FrueGreads

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

I don't agree with this. Ultimately the final say is up to the market support. Miners are running a business, so they will stay were the profit is. The market is build on supply and demand, so if we demand bitcoin for example, like is happening right now, miners will stay in bitcoin because it's more expensive, so it gives them more profit. Yes, they might switch to some other coins from time to time (like bcash), but they will only stay there if we start selling our bitcoins and start supporting bcash.
If we don't swap our coins, they will just have to come back. If they don't, then difficulty will adjust to the new hash power, and we will still be fine. If difficulty decreases, then it will be even more profitable to mine BTC, so again, in the end, miner will be where the profit is, and the profit is where the demand is, so we are not slaves.

John Langut

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 09:39:08 AM

Quote from: John Langut on November 19, 2017, 09:36:04 AM

Now I wonder if it's possible to design a cryptocurrency in such a way that makes frontrunning impossible.

For example, what if transactions have to be processed strictly sequentially?

That requires an agreement of what "sequentially" means, which can be problematic. Either one ledger entry is then determined to be the "master" which decides for all others - or everyone needs to synchronize perfectly with the exact same clock.

Are you saying it's physically impossible to prevent frontrunning that way?

I've found this article about an alternative method using submarine sends. It's not based on Bitcoin but for Ethereum.

http://hackingdistributed.com/2017/08/28/submarine-seeds/

freightjoe

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Quote from: carlfebz2 on November 19, 2017, 09:41:58 AM

Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

I got your point and I do agree somehow on those words but not totally because miners would really still remain on the strongest crypto which is bitcoin which means they would stay here as long as they can because they are making money on here if they would decide to switch on other coins then its not surprising because they would really do just for the sake of money.

But if they are using their dominance to do front-running, they are effectively making money by cheating everyone else. It also means that a powerful group can convince the miners either by arguments or by money to switch their services to an altcoin, then the impact is tremendous and as a Bitcoin holder there is nothing you can do

carlfebz2

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

I got your point and I do agree somehow on those words but not totally because miners would really still remain on the strongest crypto which is bitcoin which means they would stay here as long as they can because they are making money on here if they would decide to switch on other coins then its not surprising because they would really do just for the sake of money.

spadormie

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Well, I see your point and yeah. Miners are really asking for high fee right now. And those high fee, is so high than our expectation to be. And I believe that it is immoral act for them to do that. I sent money recently for .001 BTC what a shame.

freightjoe

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Quote from: John Langut on November 19, 2017, 09:36:04 AM

Now I wonder if it's possible to design a cryptocurrency in such a way that makes frontrunning impossible.

For example, what if transactions have to be processed strictly sequentially?

That requires an agreement of what "sequentially" means, which can be problematic. Either one ledger entry is then determined to be the "master" which decides for all others - or everyone needs to synchronize perfectly with the exact same clock.

John Langut

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Now I wonder if it's possible to design a cryptocurrency in such a way that makes frontrunning impossible.

For example, what if transactions have to be processed strictly sequentially?

TTITA

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

As long as bitcoins are still top in the large market, i seen there is no reason for miners to switch to another altcoins to mining and left bitcoins.
It is true that this system becomes very sucks when the miners start setting the high price for the priority of a transaction.

joebrook

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

That's the absolute truth, because am not sure any of use will really spend about $20 as transaction fee so that our transactions will be confirmed. They are our slavery masters and whatever that they say is what goes.

freightjoe

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Quote from: Sachinist on November 19, 2017, 09:08:33 AM

Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:57:18 AM

Quote from: John Langut on November 19, 2017, 08:52:39 AM

That sounds like a fundamental problem that could come to haunt Bitcoin evenutally. Is it possible to prevent front-running by adapting the Bitcoin code?

I don't see how. And this is exactly why regulated exchanges are regulated. Centuries of experience shows that without oversight/regulation then there will always be someone using underhanded tactics to cheat. Hence this is a deeply fundamental problem for a Bitcoin with no centralized oversight/government

It's either have someone oversee and overseer cheat themselves or have bad actors within community cheat.

rock and a hard place

At the end of the day it comes down to trust and disgust. When sufficiently many people feel manipulated by the miners (or held hostage where they can't sell when they want to) they will leave the market. Trust in a decentralized vision will be replaced with disgust, and in that scenario it will effectively spell the end of Bitcoin.

Sachinist

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:57:18 AM

Quote from: John Langut on November 19, 2017, 08:52:39 AM

That sounds like a fundamental problem that could come to haunt Bitcoin evenutally. Is it possible to prevent front-running by adapting the Bitcoin code?

I don't see how. And this is exactly why regulated exchanges are regulated. Centuries of experience shows that without oversight/regulation then there will always be someone using underhanded tactics to cheat. Hence this is a deeply fundamental problem for a Bitcoin with no centralized oversight/government

It's either have someone oversee and overseer cheat themselves or have bad actors within community cheat.

rock and a hard place

freightjoe

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Quote from: Sachinist on November 19, 2017, 09:03:42 AM

Quote from: Welsh on November 19, 2017, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Sachinist on November 19, 2017, 08:25:09 AM

You're not wrong but this is more of a problem for a centralized mining mob like the one running Bcash.

The intention was never to have large-scale mining farms to control majority of the hashrate. Irony is if centralization leads to crypto bubble bursting, nobody stands to gain including the miners. It's not in any miner's interest to corner the market.

That's going by the assumption that the miners are invested in Bitcoin themselves and believe in the technology, if a large corporation was against Bitcoin and had enough reason for an investment towards gaining the majority of the hashrate, then there could be problems.

Unless it's amazon, the cost of cornering the market would be prohibitive for anyone intending to just destroy or stall bitcoin.

Not prohibitive for the Chinese government for example

Sachinist

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Quote from: Welsh on November 19, 2017, 08:39:12 AM

Quote from: Sachinist on November 19, 2017, 08:25:09 AM

You're not wrong but this is more of a problem for a centralized mining mob like the one running Bcash.

The intention was never to have large-scale mining farms to control majority of the hashrate. Irony is if centralization leads to crypto bubble bursting, nobody stands to gain including the miners. It's not in any miner's interest to corner the market.

That's going by the assumption that the miners are invested in Bitcoin themselves and believe in the technology, if a large corporation was against Bitcoin and had enough reason for an investment towards gaining the majority of the hashrate, then there could be problems.

Unless it's amazon, the cost of cornering the market would be prohibitive for anyone intending to just destroy or stall bitcoin.

freightjoe

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Quote from: John Langut on November 19, 2017, 08:52:39 AM

That sounds like a fundamental problem that could come to haunt Bitcoin evenutally. Is it possible to prevent front-running by adapting the Bitcoin code?

I don't see how. And this is exactly why regulated exchanges are regulated. Centuries of experience shows that without oversight/regulation then there will always be someone using underhanded tactics to cheat. Hence this is a deeply fundamental problem for a Bitcoin with no centralized oversight/government

Sachinist

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Proof of stake will work if it wasn't based on how much you stake. Based on amount staked, it's actually worse than PoW. A cap on maximum stake maybe? We'll come up with a system which is egalitarian without giving any individual or a group of individuals an advantage over others. I'd say within the next 5 years if not sooner.

John Langut

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That sounds like a fundamental problem that could come to haunt Bitcoin evenutally. Is it possible to prevent front-running by adapting the Bitcoin code?

freightjoe

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Quote from: aardvark15 on November 19, 2017, 08:47:49 AM

All the more reason to stick with the major coins that are more likely to last a long time. As long as Bitcoin is a top coin with a large market cap, there will be miners. The fees might be high, but the miners are going to make their profit.

But that is the point. If the giant mining farms in China wants to, they can put a stranglehold on transactions to the point where you are effectively unable to sell/transfer your Bitcoin unless you give them a huge part of your money.

Even more dangerous is that with control comes the ability to favor their own transactions, much like the illegal practice of front-running in stock markets.

aardvark15

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Quote from: freightjoe on November 19, 2017, 08:20:13 AM

When you put your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will control your life.

If the miners decide to switch to another altcoin you cannot sell any of your coins - no matter which coin it is, even Bitcoin. If they reduce their efforts prices to transfer becomes extremely high. If you have a lot of your money in cryptocurrencies, the miners will become your new slave masters

All the more reason to stick with the major coins that are more likely to last a long time. As long as Bitcoin is a top coin with a large market cap, there will be miners. The fees might be high, but the miners are going to make their profit.

I think the coins that we need to worry about are the ones that have low market cap and are not profitable for miners. Many of those will not survive.

alani123

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Miners are everyone (in theory). If profit seeking miners abandon bitcoin, then anyone could bring up mining machines to keep up the transactions confirming to be included in the blockchain. This is the case with several cryptocurrencies that are not profitable to mine. People stay in the blockchain because they believe in the currency's potential. Not just driven by profit. You can actually buy old/inefficient mining equipment for very cheap.

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