Mixers under the threat? | Bitcointalksearch.org

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: OgNasty on May 10, 2021, 07:31:21 PM

It seems like they have got to be high on the list of regulators looking to shut down sketchy operations.

Then they should probably be turning their attention to banks, who are responsible for laundering trillions of dollars of money annually, far more than mixers ever will. But no, they get a free pass because they buy out our politicians.

Quote from: Kakmakr on May 11, 2021, 09:17:16 AM

Do you think for one moment governments will not hunt down people running a mixer service that are used for criminal actions? (The owners of these sites cannot say, they did not know people are using their sites for criminal actions)

VPNs across the world are undoubtedly used by some people for criminal actions (whether or not that is a smart idea is a different conversation), but yet they are allowed to continue to function, run ads on social media and TV, some are even operated by companies trading on various stock exchanges, etc.

If they shut down mixers because of nonsense "money laundering" accusations, then they will also try to shut down every non-KYC exchange, every instant coin exchange/swap service, every non-KYC sportsbook, casino, gambling site, etc. Any address or transaction which can not be linked to a real name and identity becomes blacklisted.

The whole thing is nonsense.

hazenyc

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Quote from: ReiMomo on May 14, 2021, 04:32:57 PM

I guess the only option the guy has now is to hire the best lawyer in town. They will I guess be liable but the case could be lighter I can tell.
Let us say that they attract people that want to launder money but it doesn’t mean that they have mixers for that purpose. If executed well, the lawyer might be able to save the person.

Authorities have been eyeing these mixer services since then. FBI was using as well to liquidate some of their possessed Bitcoins and I feel bad about it.

Well, things have time to end and mixers are about to end as well. They were wrong when they opened the service in the public. I could have the services offered to the sharks if I were them.

I can't remember exactly where I read that but when some guys from a decentralized exchange got under fire the approach to defend themselves was supposed to be dealing with "freedom of speech" and that writing code is not against the law per se. It's like writing code for a virus is not against the law, but executing is. As the developers from that DEX haven't executed anything, they wanted to go down that route. They just provided the code and others used it.

In this case, how actively involved is the provider of a mixer? Is he actively contributing in the background in order for the mixing process to be facilitated?

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I guess the only option the guy has now is to hire the best lawyer in town. They will I guess be liable but the case could be lighter I can tell.
Let us say that they attract people that want to launder money but it doesn’t mean that they have mixers for that purpose. If executed well, the lawyer might be able to save the person.

Authorities have been eyeing these mixer services since then. FBI was using as well to liquidate some of their possessed Bitcoins and I feel bad about it.

Well, things have time to end and mixers are about to end as well. They were wrong when they opened the service in the public. I could have the services offered to the sharks if I were them.

Joel_Jantsen

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Nah, the way it works is, it would be a scam if any other bitcoiner in the town does it but it's not a scam if Elon Musk does it because the latter would bring more taxes to the government right? This is the unfortunate truth of the capitalistic society.

Stedsm

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Quote from: Insanerman on May 13, 2021, 03:46:54 PM

I might be late in this thread but it is just a common idea that any government would prohibit companies and businesses that lets people be anonymous with their transactions. US government is only concerned that they cannot track people with huge profit from cryptocurrencies especially if they use tons of mixers for their holdings and transactions. Hence, if a country is developing laws and regulations with cryptocurrencies and its holders/users, then it is a clear no doubt that mixing can gain a little spotlight on the way.

TBH, mixing can only be helpful for treasurers who love to hodl their BTC for a very, very long time no matter the price, but they don't want other people to know/trace their transactions to their fresh addresses where they want to hodl their coins. Or it can be helpful to those who want to hide their money from their government. No doubt it can also be helpful to other dark deeds committing people which I won't like to discuss, but I believe they will hardly keep any money in BTC because its value gains and drops a lot and their deals can't wait for such gains to recover their losses.

The fact is, a person needs to know and understand how much private is normalcy and how much private is too much private for them. If privacy means everything for someone, there's no doubt they won't give a damn to the transaction fees (paid to miners) and would still use mixers to privatize their funds, but if they simply want to abide by their jurisdiction, then they may not go with this and will simply keep doing what they had been doing before.

Insanerman

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Quote from: xenon131 on April 28, 2021, 06:40:52 AM

~

I might be late in this thread but it is just a common idea that any government would prohibit companies and businesses that lets people be anonymous with their transactions. US government is only concerned that they cannot track people with huge profit from cryptocurrencies especially if they use tons of mixers for their holdings and transactions. Hence, if a country is developing laws and regulations with cryptocurrencies and its holders/users, then it is a clear no doubt that mixing can gain a little spotlight on the way.

hazenyc

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Quote from: stomachgrowls on May 12, 2021, 01:40:24 PM

Quote from: hazenyc on May 12, 2021, 06:51:05 AM

Quote from: magneto on May 11, 2021, 05:25:22 PM

The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.

If you function like a money transmitter even if it is only by redirecting funds in exchange for a fee I think you can get into trouble in a lot of countries. The prosecutors will find ways to bend their law such that you do function like a transmitter. If a person comes to you in real life and gives you a suitcase with $100,000 and says hey bring this to that address and I'll give you some reward, I am not sure which laws exactly you break but I know you would be in trouble.

I do see the same thing and for sure those mixer owners out there are really ready for that probability even though this talks about redirecting or some sort but still you would still get involved.

We have seen mixers closed its doors voluntarily and there are still which had been operating until today but we wont know on when would the time comes where government
would really be breaking or knocking off their doors to get involvement.

Wont really be surprised if one day we would really be seeing these kind of news pops out unexpectedly.

The issue is if you are operating a mixing service it is almost inconceivable that you can manage to stay anonymous. You would have to take care of every single detail and just one mistake is enough to reveal who you are.

stomachgrowls

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Quote from: hazenyc on May 12, 2021, 06:51:05 AM

Quote from: magneto on May 11, 2021, 05:25:22 PM

The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.

If you function like a money transmitter even if it is only by redirecting funds in exchange for a fee I think you can get into trouble in a lot of countries. The prosecutors will find ways to bend their law such that you do function like a transmitter. If a person comes to you in real life and gives you a suitcase with $100,000 and says hey bring this to that address and I'll give you some reward, I am not sure which laws exactly you break but I know you would be in trouble.

I do see the same thing and for sure those mixer owners out there are really ready for that probability even though this talks about redirecting or some sort but still you would still get involved.

We have seen mixers closed its doors voluntarily and there are still which had been operating until today but we wont know on when would the time comes where government
would really be breaking or knocking off their doors to get involvement.

Wont really be surprised if one day we would really be seeing these kind of news pops out unexpectedly.

hazenyc

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Quote from: magneto on May 11, 2021, 05:25:22 PM

The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.

If you function like a money transmitter even if it is only by redirecting funds in exchange for a fee I think you can get into trouble in a lot of countries. The prosecutors will find ways to bend their law such that you do function like a transmitter. If a person comes to you in real life and gives you a suitcase with $100,000 and says hey bring this to that address and I'll give you some reward, I am not sure which laws exactly you break but I know you would be in trouble.

magneto

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The court hasn't even determined his fate yet.

I honestly don't think that running a bitcoin mixer per se would be breaking any laws in most countries - all you're doing is redirecting transactions on a public network. Obviously, the operation of a mixer can attract nefarious individuals with which the problem lies.

I also don't think that existing players in the mixer market would care too much. They have too much incentive to keep going given the volume of mixing they receive on the daily, and most have probably prepared substantially for any run-ins with law enforcement anyway.

Kakmakr

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The similarity on how they caught him and how they caught Ross Ulbricht are the same, because both of them used their email to register domains or centralized services that could be linked to their real identity. Roll Eyes

How difficult can it be for these people to get "throwaway" email addresses? In any way, to answer your question... " if Mixers are under threat?" ... Answer : Yes, definitely.

Do you think for one moment governments will not hunt down people running a mixer service that are used for criminal actions? (The owners of these sites cannot say, they did not know people are using their sites for criminal actions)

Will he be extradited to the US? No. I am also curious on what will happen with "DarkSide" (supposedly a Russian group) ....when the US can pin them for the Oil pipeline ransomware attack. (Was this government sanctioned?.. they say no.) Huh

OgNasty

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I’m amazed mixers are still operating after all this time. It seems like they have got to be high on the list of regulators looking to shut down sketchy operations. I assume those remaining are probably operating out of interesting locations or doing their best to remain anonymous. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that regulators will be trying everything they can to arrest operators of high volume mixers as well as attempt to unmask their user base.

hazenyc

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on April 28, 2021, 09:52:47 AM

This is the document that has been filed (13 pages long):
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.230456/gov.uscourts.dcd.230456.1.1_2.pdf

The agent behind the investigation depicts the facts that he found, that support the three charges. A few key points:
-   Bitcoin Fog has been active since 2011.

-   Even though there is a clear site for visibility, the service seems to be Tor based.

-   Over 1,2M BTCs have been mixed through the service (chain-analysis forensics data).

-   They identify as the largest senders through the service Agora, Silk Road, Evolution and AlplhaBay.

-   The site was originally announced … on Bitcointalk (see https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.596034). Reading through, it’s clear that the officer in charge read all the related posts on the forum (warning for others).

-   An undercover direct TX was sent to the Mixer in September 2019, and on November 2019 another controlled TX, being the latter originated from an undercover account on Apollon darknet market. They also sent a message to the admin to indicate that they were going to mix BTCs obtained through illegal activity.

-   Sterlingov used the same email on his Bitcointalk account, as that to register the mixer domain. He paid for the domain using a Liberty Reserve account (a Costa Rica currency Exchange). The document depicts how they linked that to a Mt. Gox account (multiple steps in-between), and yes, they got access to IP logs to help tie things around (Liberty Reserve and, apparently Mt.Gox). Also records from Google were used in the loop…

So information dating back nearly a decade ago, and some sweet collaboration, managed to identify Sterlingov, and tie him to the Mixer…

Thanks for outlining this. I am sure authorities have a whole horde working on getting an overview about the crypto world. It is still a question of manpower and I guess they can't hunt everyone down but focus on the guys that play an important role in one way or another. As you described it they carefully build the puzzle over time, subpoenaed companies like Google to nail it down with full certainty. The internet knows it all.

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Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on May 02, 2021, 12:08:20 AM

Quote from: seoincorporation on April 28, 2021, 11:32:53 AM

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

That's my take on the issue of using mixer too, I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be? Bitcoin is pseudonymous enough for someone to not get tracked online.

I don't want to be the fanboy but you might want to read up on privacy (hey maybe even the Cypherpunk Manifesto or the one from ProjectVRM) then perhaps you might gain insight and perspective on why some people believe that protecting your privacy goes beyond your rights, but is in fact, your duty to yourself and to society.

I don't need to hide a lot of things myself, and choose deliberately not to, for purposes of obeying the laws of the jurisdiction I reside in.

But I also choose deliberately to keep private some things I don't want the whole world to know.

Privacy isn't secrecy.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Slow death on May 02, 2021, 08:02:08 AM

but we also can't deny that criminals are supposed to be the mixers' biggest customers.

Absolutely not true. The best data we have from Chainalysis says that only 8% of funds passed through mixers are from illicit sources, which is a far cry away from being mixers' "biggest customers".

Quote from: Slow death on May 02, 2021, 08:02:08 AM

so we have to think: will mixers do more good than bad?

Undeniably. If you make privacy illegal, then only criminals will have privacy.

Quote from: Slow death on May 02, 2021, 08:02:08 AM

how many honest people mix many bitcoins? how many criminal people mix bitcoin?

From the same report from Chainalysis, the most common source for funds sent to mixers is directly from centralized exchange. So mixers' biggest customers are actually honest users who simply don't want exchanges spying on them and linking all future transactions back to their personal data.

stadus

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Money laundering can easily be done in bitcoin mixer, that's part of the risk, in fact, there are already a lot of bitcoin mixers that have close their business due to this big threat, but we can't deny that there are still mixers operating until now, we just have to be aware of the risk and make use of their service while they are still operating.

The thing is, the government wants to treat every business that deals with money as a bank, that they can be regulated through their centralized policy.

Slow death

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Quote from: seoincorporation on April 28, 2021, 11:32:53 AM

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

The thing here is that users don't have to register on that service to use it, they only have to send the coins and provide the address where they want the 'clean coins', so, it will be kind of hard for the govs to trace the users who are washing their coins.

this is a question equal to the question of possession of weapons. some people argue that civilian people cannot have weapons, that weapons should only be with the military and the police because the number of crimes could be frightening if everyone has weapons, with mixers it's the same, we can't think that when someone creates a mixer the goal was to want criminals to use the mixer, but we also can't deny that criminals are supposed to be the mixers' biggest customers.

so we have to think: will mixers do more good than bad?

how many honest people mix many bitcoins? how many criminal people mix bitcoin?

I do not agree with KYC, it is unfair, it is not fair that we have to do KYC for sites where the owners are anonymous, this is unfair and wrong

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: FIFA worldcup on May 01, 2021, 07:36:24 PM

So what about the bitcoin mixer services which are not US based and U.S. authorities will not be able to take any action against it.

International laws or treaties are irrelevant to the US government. We are the world police, after all.

Quote from: seoincorporation on April 28, 2021, 11:32:53 AM

I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

Nonsense. There is a difference between having nothing to hide and having nothing you want to share publicly.

Quote from: Kong Hey Pakboy on May 02, 2021, 12:08:20 AM

I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be?

If privacy is irrelevant to you, then I'm sure you'll be quite happy sharing your real name, address, email address, phone number, bank statements, and internet browsing history publicly in this thread. No? Then what do you have against people not wanting their entire bitcoin transaction history to be public knowledge?

Kong Hey Pakboy

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Quote from: seoincorporation on April 28, 2021, 11:32:53 AM

It was a matter of time to see this happens. I always asked myself how those services can be legal because any under who sends their coins to mixing services is because he has something to hide...

That's my take on the issue of using mixer too, I think that there is no other reasons besides doing something shady even if they say that it is for privacy, how private do you want your shit to be? Bitcoin is pseudonymous enough for someone to not get tracked online.

FIFA worldcup

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Quote from: xenon131 on April 28, 2021, 06:40:52 AM

The latest - Roman Sterlingov has been identified as operator of bitcoin mixing service entitled as Bitcoin Fog and arrested by U.S. authorities for involvement into money laundering schemes. In this regard, the question arose as to the extent of the readiness of U.S authorities to file charges for both running and using any bitcoin mixer. I think most of them are under such threat... what about you?

So what about the bitcoin mixer services which are not US based and U.S. authorities will not be able to take any action against it. You can run an anonymous bitcoin mixer service and avoid any kind of plenty.
Also, if all the bitcoin mixer services are stopped, you can still do money laundering through exchanges which allow you to deposit withdraw without KYC.

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