Topic: Mnemonic seed? (Read 470 times)

Well that is the general assumption, or consensus.
 
You also have to realize that no system is guaranteed to be fail safe.

I mean, sure, a passphrase makes no difference if an attacker is just blindly brute forcing seed phrases or private keys. However, the change of someone having their coins stolen from an attacker brute forcing a 2²⁵⁶ space is astronomically smaller from the chance of someone having their coins stolen from someone finding their seed phrase back up, or coercing them in to revealing it, or them accidentally exposing it online, and so on, in which case a strong passphrase can mean the difference between losing everything and losing nothing.

I agree on the passphrase protected hardware wallets, but it's generally a bad idea to put them in places where many people have access to, i mean if they steal your hardware wallet, good luck with your passphrase...

Other then that and about the mnemonics themselves a lot can be said.
It's all just stacked layers of convenience and security but it's only so for the end user.
It makes it harder for you, to get to your funds.
But it doesn't add any extra security to the system.
A systems security is as strong as it's weakest link.

People tend to believe that something is more safe in this or that way, but this is merely a feeling or a emotional state, But it does not mean that it really became any safer by adding a new method.

Don't forget that, for your mnemonic + passphrase there will also exist a different mnemonic that does not have any passphrase set which will lead to the same address.
You have to realize that it's all just numbers at the core.

These 2048 added hash rounds are rounds you need to run through before you can get to your funds.
This makes it harder for you to get to your public point, but that does not mean it get's harder for everyone or for an attacker.
For an attacker any point will do, he is not looking for your point specifically he will be looking to check as many points as possible in the given amount of time, so you can bet that he will be using a different and faster method.

Simply said, your mnemonic is not the only way to get to your funds and you should be aware of that.
Your funds are not protected by your mnemonic, or rounds of hash, your mnemonic is just a convenient way to store access to your funds, for mostly yourself.
In reality your funds are behind just one number, and no matter how many rounds, words or passphrases or layers of security you stack on top of each other to get to your number yourself, if an attacker uses a different method without all these bells and whistles, then all these layers of security will only count for one person and that person is you.

In fact many times these systems get stacked and then one element fails like a user losing his passphrase and now he has lost access to his own funds he has become a victim of his own security we have seen this numerous times as it happens on a regular basis.
It's a pity when you realize that the passphrase he lost didn't actually add any extra security at all, except for himself and he is now well protected against gaining access to his own funds.

I use multiple different passphrases for multiple different wallets and I think it is a great feature. People should use it more.

In some cases, it can be a huge safety improvement. Trezor devices, for example, can have the seed phrase extracted from them by someone with physical access to the device. If you aren't using a strong passphrase, then your funds are gone. Ledger devices had a now patched bug which allowed an altcoin transaction to also sign a bitcoin transaction from the corresponding wallet. If your altcoin and bitcoin wallets were behind different passphrases, then this would have been entirely mitigated.

It can also be a privacy improvement. Using entirely different wallets for different things will help prevent you from accidentally linking inputs together that you wanted to keep separate (although granted this can also be achieved using different accounts in the derivation path).

If someone finds one of my seed phrase back ups (unlikely, but not impossible), then only the minority of my coins stored at that "top level" are at immediate risk, and the majority stored under various passphrases will be secured against a brute force attack for long enough for me to move them to new wallets. Not to mention that passphrases are the only real protection we have against $5 wrench attacks.

Electrum has an option that lets you supply your own custom wordlist that can also contain any number of words (not just the standard 2048) and then derive the mnemonic using that list instead. it helps with the scalability of the code and gives the option to use different things for advanced purposes.

as for the extension, it is the same with all wallets that have BIP-39 or BIP-39-like mnemonic derivation. since they use a KDF in the end right before the mnemonic is converted to a BIP-32 seed and a KDF takes both a salt and a passphrase they let the user set that passphrase if they wanted to derive an entirely different seed.
and it is not exactly for "safety". it is designed for "plausible deniability". PBKDF2 specially with such low iteration is too weak to add any security.

I'm not sure what you want to achieve with non-BIP39 words, but at least in Electrum you can extend the seed with custom words.
Some see it as an extra safety measure, but I'm not convinced it's so much useful.

Not aware of any wordlists using the word "overweight", it's not even a valid word for the old legacy blockchain.info password recovery... unless your relative was trying to be clever and obfuscate their seed by using "overweight" instead of "fat"?

Is the seed mnemonic 12 or 24 words long? and how many "non-BIP39" words are there exactly?

the word list itself is the same as what others use. the difference is in the algorithm used to derive a mnemonic from the entropy, mainly in the way checksum is defined. Electrum's is versioned.

the whole point of using a mnemonic is that you don't backup individual private keys. you backup one thing safely and it can recover ALL your keys currently in use or the  ones you may use in the future. it is not easily possible to backup say 100 keys.

GUI Electrum created only 12 seed, if you have 24 seed it's not for electrum. (exception if you expert, you created on console tab>> make_seed(256))

1. How much wordlist?, 12 or 24?
2. If can't import it electrum, I suggest to read #7 or Use https://iancoleman.io/bip39/
3. if 20 wordlist, maybe split seed (shamir secret sharing) where trezor T wallet have this feature https://wiki.trezor.io/User_manual:Creating_a_wallet_with_Shamir_Backup

What types of mnemonic seeds are used in Bitcoin?

Where you fund it?, new or old electrum?,

I have no idea, I still read but bitcoin is a whole universe, it takes a long time to understand and realize many things.
There are words that are not in BIP39's word list: "overweight" for example, so I guess that's why it can't be added.

Have you tried ticking the BIP39 seed option when importing seeds in Electrum? If there are custom words, also tick the "Extend this seed with custom words."

Did you check BIP39 when importing the seed phrase into Electrum?
Most of wallets support BIP39 seeds. So, there's a high probability, that seed phrase is a BIP39 seed.
You should also try it with different script types.

Then, how can we determine which seed belongs to which wallet?
My relative died recently, and his parents found a piece of paper labeled "bitcoin" containing mnemonic seed.
I tried to import it into Electrum, but does not accept it. How do I know what wallet it is for?

I think you mean BIP39, not BIP44.

BIP39 describes a method for generating and using mnemonic phrases to create wallets known as "hierarchical deterministic wallets".
BIP44 describes the standard derivation path used in such wallets for legacy addresses, which is m/44'/0'/0'/0/0 for the first non-change address of the first account.

Despite Electrum not conforming to the BIP39 standard, it does conform to the BIP44 standard, and uses these standard derivation paths with its own seed phrases.

You can import a seed phrase generated from Electrum wordlist into Bluewallet.

Note: You cannot import Electrum seed into bluewallet if the wallet is empty. [Ref.]

If you want the next btton to work, you have to click on the Options button and check BPIP 39 seed right before or after you enter the Mnemonic/seed phrase


Once you press the next button, you should choose the right script type and the derivation path used by Coinomi of the addresses you would like to restore.

I have just downloaded a coinomi wallet on another device, I imported the seed phrase from my electrum wallet into the coinomi but it did not work. You are very right. Later, I read seed phrase generated on mycelium, copay, bitpay, jaxx, ledger nano, keepkey, trezor, blockchain, exodus and trust wallets can be easily imported on coinomi. Also, I do the same for electrum by importing seed phrase from coinomi into an electrum wallet, not also successful as it did not bring out the  next button. I used electrum seed on the new electrum wallet and it brought out the next button.

I later know all the wallets mentioned above support BIP44 but electrum wallet did not support BIP44, which is the reason the seed phrase generated on electrum wallet will not support most other wallets.

The wallets above are not all recommendable, only for informational purpose. Like me, I prefer hardware wallets, mycelium and trust wallets. Including the electrum wallet in question.

The vast majority of software and hardware wallets will support seed phrases.

Of these, the vast majority will use the BIP39 standard. You can therefore use the same BIP39 seed phrase in all BIP39 supporting wallets.

Electrum is an outlier which uses its own seed phrase algorithms. You can import BIP39 seed phrases from elsewhere to Electrum, but you can't import Electrum seed phrases in to most other wallets.

Most of the hardware wallet is support, here the list

"New" electrum use BIP39 wordlist.
you should know other special seed for LN called aezeed

yes, wallet compatible with BIP39 seed

Electrum used new wordlist and I don't know if standard seed from Electrum can be import to the different wallet but you can use the BIP39 wallet and there might be some supported wallet like mycelium?
But I heard that you can only import the seed if it was created from Mycelium and you can able to import it to Electrum.

Bitcoin wallets have many different algo/path so I think Electrum mnemonic seeds are not compatible on other wallets.

Why not back up the private key instead because you can import the private key to many different wallets compared to Mnemonic seed backup and honestly it's not safe to use if you are going to import it to many wallets(It's too risky).

Seeds are depend on which BIP one wallets use.

For Electrum wallet, you can check details at their documentation page

Electrum Seed Version System

On Electrum wallet, you can import seeds from other wallets.
File > New/ Restore > Wallet name > Create new wallet > I already have a seed > Options (you will see an option for BIP39 seed)

If you notice, there is an option for extend this seed with custom words. If you extend it, you will have a different seed!

[General] Bitcoin Wallets - Which, what, why?
[overview] Recover Bitcoin from any old storage format
Mnemonic Code Converter (It is a very helpful tool).

I just learned that Bitcoin Core does not support mnemonic seed.
Which wallets support mnemonic seed except Electrum and are there any differences in the wordlists? I see Electrum has "old" and "new" wordlists.
Can I use the same seed on a different wallets?