Topic: Monero dice seed hacked? - page 2. (Read 4159 times)

Yes, because of this:
Besides that, this is an extreme scenario because it assumes that you had the whole bankroll in a hot wallet. I don't see too much reason to consider extreme scenarios like that, better to just look at the facts. With the manual withdrawals in place, it would have been no problem to refund 100% to the most unlucky investors and 50% to those who lost 50% etc.


No, just the ones who had a loss and were in the bankroll during the time of the bets.

No, seems very rational to me.



That is exactly why I have been following your site indeed, to consider to add it on my site. For what it's worth: I am very transparent about that and I only add the most popular sites (which don't have a history of untrustworthy behavior.) Your site used to have plenty of days without any betting, so normally that wouldn't qualify. I have seen a rise in play since the XMR price rise, so I definitely was planning to add your site to the new version of my site. But I agree this is all not relevant to this situation.

We're always open to discussing things like this, and finding an amicable solution for everyone. That's why we have an email address that you can use. Having a messy ideological discussion on troll central is not a fantastic way to achieve that, especially given that we *are* responsive to support emails.

So you're of the position that other investors, who may be asleep due to timezones, should just suffer the 100% loss? So in that event the investor is just "lucky", and the rest are "unlucky"?

And yet in the reverse all investors should be "lucky"?

How do you not see the disconnect here?


lol sure, that's why we're listed on DiceSites, right? Don't patronise me.

 Fluffy I agree with a lot of what Nico has said. I would like a refund because I do believe I should have received one, but I do not want the refund if you believe it to be out of charity. I want it because you believe its the right thing to do. If you change your mind could you credit it to  my account.

Strange comparison.

Better comparison: a hacker steals a part of the balance from very specific accounts on Poloniex. In panic, I obviously withdraw the left-over money. Poloniex detects the vulnerability and refunds all money. I think it would be normal that Poloniex refunds the affected balances and not just anyone on Poloniex. I just cannot imagine Poloniex saying "well, I know you lost money because of that hacker, but you withdrew the rest, so we won't give your lost money back, instead we give it to others".

Of course if I gamble with the "left-over money" on a dice site and loss it all, then I don't expect them to pay that part back (which is your comparison.) But that has nothing to do with the hacked losses.

Strange comparison again. It has nothing to do with future profits. We are not talking about an investor who is complaining that you made huge profits after he divested. We are talking about investors who made a loss because of a cheater when he was invested and you are refunding the wrong people.

Better comparison: if one of your employees stole money directly from investors during the time I was an investor of that start-up and he would refund 2 years later, then yes, I would still expect him to pay me too.

What? Let's say the cheater would have won 50% of the BR, I divested to cut losses, and cheater continues to win rest of BR. Then yes, indeed, I would only have a 50% loss, while others would have a 100% loss. That's exactly right and that's why someone should divest/withdraw when he sees the site is hacked. I don't see why that investor with 50% loss would owe anything to the other investors?

Even then, you would have the decision to try to do the right thing and refund the losses (so 50% to the 50% loss dude and 100% to the rest). But in that situation I could have understand saying "sorry investors, but that was your risk too and I cannot pay you everything so we have to sort something out". That is why I say that it depends on the situation. Still I would expect any refund to go to affected investors who had a loss and not just to any investor after the cheater.

Why? You would do these calculations on a separate database and only calculating the refunds, not too much risk. Yes, it might take a few days (although a quick script for estimations should be possible in a few hours.) But I don't see why a little more delay would be a problem if it's doing the right thing.

Lol what? We are talking about a cheater who won money, what has that to do with someone losing money? Obviously when a player bets, it's final. No dice site ever refunds any normal bet.

It's not about the bets after he divested, it's about the bets during his investment. You refunded the bets that were during his investments. He was a part of the bankroll during that time, so he should be refunded.

I would expect you to understand why it's wrong to refund the current investors and not the affected investors. And I would hope you pay back the affected investors because it's the right thing to do as a gambling site owner - not because $100 is not much.





I am honestly surprised about the replies here. I have been following your site for months and had a pretty high opinion of it since you are a trusted XMR developer. But I really cannot imagine that you don't understand why you should refund investors who actually had a loss because of the cheater.

We found the bug he exploited that leaked the seed, and we've subsequently patched it.

I think he is lucky only. how hack seed? it's impossible.

We made a decision on how to handle it at the time, under pressure, to the best of our ability. You are welcome to disagree with that decision, but unless you're in that scenario running your own site your opinion is largely meaningless. It's easy to look at it after the fact and go "well I would have done X" - I can think of any one of 30 different ways we could have handled things.


So then you cut your losses and you get out, the end. There is no coming back later on to try reclaim imagined profit.

Perhaps a comparison will help: let's say that you have 10 BTC in Poloniex. You hear that Poloniex isn't processing BTC withdrawals, along with panic that they're hacked, and use your BTC to buy a bunch of WaffleCoin and withdraw it. You sell your WaffleCoin on ShapeShift, but now the market's tanked and you end up with 9 BTC. Later that day Poloniex put out a statement apologising for the issues and stating that they're now fixed. Would you insist that they roll the trades back? What about the shorters that took profit from you?

Or what if you invested in a startup, and then when it looked like things were going south you sold your investment at a loss. Two years later the startup is a huge, successful company. Do you insist on taking profit from the growth because you *used to be* an investor?


We thought about this, but we decided that it would be too dangerous for us to spend days and weeks trying to build a magical "undo" script, completely wrecking any auditability, and potentially ending up with a screwed up data set at the end.


With all respect to the affected investor, he took his $100 loss and walked away. He didn't contact us, he didn't ask for input on how we were going to handle things. He just assumed that it was the end, and he would have been the *only* investor to get out with his money had we not had safeguards and had the attacker been able to actually drain the wallet. What would have happened then?

You stated at the outset that you understand that the situation would have been different had the attacker managed to withdraw, but you're not actually following that thought through. Had that played out we'd have a total loss on the part of all the investors, and one investor who only incurred a $100 loss, and you can bet that investor wouldn't volunteer to divvy up his remaining funds among the affected investors.

Ultimately you're asking us to take up a morally hazardous position. What happens when someone "accidentally" places a large bet and loses? Should we undo their bet, and take the profits from the investors? An investor that divests and withdraws is no longer part of the bankroll. They bailed out with a profit or with a loss, and that's the end of that.

Nevertheless, I've already offered to send $100 to the affected investor, so I'm not sure what more you expect?

agree on all the line

That was the exact point of my previous post but seems like fluffpony missed it answering


Your site didn't lose a single monero, seedhacker didn't get any monero from your site (not this time at least but you should investigate the past if you already didn't) yet at least one of your investor had their investiment cut in half.

@fluffpony maybe you are the confused  one.

I understand the risk is on the investors too and the situation would have been different if the cheater managed to withdraw all the money.

But the cheater didn't get any of it, so if you do rewind the cheater's bets, it seems very obvious that you should refund to the affected investors. To suggest otherwise seems ridiculous to me. And to give free money to people who invested after the whole situation seems even more crazy.

That seems like a normal thing to do. If I see a site is hacked, obviously my first reaction is to withdraw my own money. You must be pretty stupid to not immediately make sure your left-over money is safe.

You shouldn't roll the whole database back, you should look which investors got affected by the cheater and how much they lost. In theory just the rolls and invest/divest information, should be sufficient. I understand it's technically tricky and needs some custom script to calculate, but that seems like the only fair way.

EG: you have the invested amounts of the current investors. Loop all events (= all bets + divests/invests) from latest to start of cheater. First event is probably some real bet after the cheater, recalculate what the invested amounts where before that bet. Second event same. If event is a invest/divest, adjust invested amounts too. Then when you reach the last bet of cheater, you should have all the info of which investors were invested at that time including the amount. Separately save how much they lost (or gained) in that cheater's bet. Continue loop and if the event is a cheater's bet, do the same. All till you are back to the first cheater's bet. IMO after this, you should have a list of investors with specific amounts of how much they lost? Reimburse those amounts to the investors.

BillyBurns already made a loss from the cheater? So if you decided the losses were on the investors, nothing would have changed? He wouldn't need to deposit - he is already in loss.




edit: TBH I am not sure how many investors actually divested like BillyBurns. If he is the only one, things are probably more easy :x But just the mindset of refunding the investors who actually lost money seems important to me.

His wins weren't re-added to the bankroll based on the prior state, they were re-added based on the state of the system at the time we were re-adding it. The state of your part of the bankroll at that time was 0, so you don't benefit from that.

Let me put it differently: you saw the errant bets and you divested and withdrew your money, in a panic and at a loss. What if the attacker had gotten away with his withdrawals, and we had to socialise the loss? Would you deposit your money back in to participate in that?

In a situation like this you, as a participant in the bankroll, have your funds invested at risk. Everyone takes the same risk, and gets the same reward. If you try and circumvent a scenario you are effectively cutting your losses, come what may, and it isn't reasonable to turn around afterwards and expect an outcome that is any different.

Look, if the $100 you lost in this scenario is completely untenable then we'll personally send you 15 XMR from the site profits.


Based on the investor roll at the time of the distribution out. Because there had been users created and withdrawals / deposits processed in the meantime, we couldn't simply roll the database back.


Yep exactly; there wasn't any other way to do that that wouldn't have added insane amounts of complexity to the process, and potentially left the data in an extremely broken state.


We already have a replayable log (that's the point of the MySQL log after all), but we couldn't rewind the entire system. Consider, for instance, a new user that created an account and deposited funds. If we roll the system state back we would have to manually allocate all of those and manually recreate the users. And, too, consider the exact issue we've got above, where a user divested and withdrew - how do you roll that back? You can't, so you have to move forward with the system in the current state.

I think probably it is added back to the investors at the time of adding back. So if someone divested, he won't get anything, but if someone invested, he would get a share of the added back amount

Do you always comment without reading the threads first?
This is a 1.5 page thread, it doesn't take much of your time to read through it and get an idea of the situation, but it seems you stopped doing so right after OP.

Go read the thread, then read your comment and think for 3 seconds, please.

I'd be interested in this aswell, how did you determine which investor got which part of the secured funds back once you rolledback the clearly compromised bets?

That's a hell of will. Well it can be due to seed compromise. But I know a few players who can roll more greens than him in a row. So may be its 10% skills and 90% luck. Well if he knows exactly what's gonna come next he should not have those reds. I hope that he don't cheat. If he cheated bum his ass

I lost? I was invested in the roll for the entirety of that guys bets he did not make 1 bet that I wasn't apart of( From all the ones I pasted) the other 30k he won that I didn't see I may or not have been but we should be able to know since I know nearly what % of the roll i had invested before I deposited 20 hours ago. I'm not some dude trying to scam you if you look in the crypto-games thread, the support sent me a extra 81 ether 2 days ago  in 1 of my withdrawals and I sent it back.

How can you claim no investors lost when, I deposited 32 Xmr and 20 hours later my Xmr is worth 15 Xmr...... I only divested and cashed out because it was evident to me he was cheating after I looked at those rolls and I somehow get punished for alerting you guys and acting in a intelligent way. I'm assuming I alerted you since I posted in chat my suspicion, then emailed support with a title Seed been hacked. Then pmed Nico with my suspicion, then I requested a withdrawal that was sent while there were no indicators of anyone aware of the hacker other than the hacker and I, also I didn't see his rolls happening, I just opened a tab saw all those bets, no bets were made after I had noticed the seed was compromised.

If all his wins were re-added to the bankroll then my funds would have been re-added to the bankroll because he did in fact win my Xmr...  So since I can verify he did in fact win my Xmr and I can verify you guys did in fact add his wins back to the bankroll where does the extra Xmr he wins that were originally my investment end up?

Why do you even care ? If he is clever and can hack then shame for you. He found a way into the system so good for him. Ga!nbling sites mostly bitch so its good to see someone got them back.

Nobody lost any money, you're confused.

Your seed was someway hacked, some investor was losing a lot because of this ( and it is your fault just to state clearly how I see it) and tried to limit their losses.

Basically now they are the only one who suffered a loss because you have that great security measure for which you manually process every withdrawal.

From an external point of view it's kind of ridicolous... but if I was an investor I would be very disappointed.

It could be seen also as an inside job to keep some of investors money... but Am just putting it here as a provocation and not something I really think.

Ah - yeah, then you wouldn't have benefited from things being put right since you weren't part of the bankroll any longer, and didn't even have funds still on the site. In a situation like this we can't really compensate for people who have taken their funds out the site.