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Topic: Mtgox exchange in free fall $$$$ - page 2. (Read 3354 times)

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
July 05, 2011, 02:35:49 PM
#30
Down to $11 but have good support at $10 I'm interested can it go lower that $10?Smiley
Back in April, one could buy a bitcoin for $1. As the bitcoin bubble deflates, prices should return to pre-bubble levels.  It has been argued in a bubble thread that this one should be completed by the end of August.

From the price chart, below $10 I see support at $8.  But the current downdraft - July 5 - has such momentum that it may simply blow past these supposed supports.
member
Activity: 88
Merit: 10
July 05, 2011, 02:27:51 PM
#29
Down to $11 but have good support at $10 I'm interested can it go lower that $10?Smiley
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
July 05, 2011, 02:25:00 PM
#28
I think the price will stabilize at the cost of electricity for mining at the current difficulty level, multiplied by some markup to pay for hardware and time, say 20%-50%.  Miners located in areas with cheap electricity will have an advantage.

Bitcoins are like any other commodity, with both supply and demand. Few miners will sell at a loss, and those that do will quickly leave the market, leaving miners that price their bitcoins at an acceptable profit range, where it's still worth participating in the market.

I've seen various calculations that cost of electricity is around $1.50/bitcoin at a recent difficulty level, so I think with a few more increases in difficulty, bitcoin will be somewhere in the $5 range.  The 1000% markup that was happening at the $17 level just can't last.


This idea has been brought up and rejected many times.  The cost of electricity is a moving target.  If miners leave, difficulty drops.  If miners come, difficulty increases.  This is not a fundamental.

There is some weak influence, as current miners might not be inclined to sell for less than their costs, but there is more influence the other way- miners look at the profitability and decide whether to mine or not, which tends to drive total btc costs up or down toward a suitable value.

There are a ton of market factors, but ultimately if, say, $1B of goods are being traded with btc, then a minimum of $1B worth of btc must be purchased to support the market.  Nobody buying btc to use as currency cares what the value is, as the bitcoin is divisible.  e.g., if Bob wants to send $100USD to Amsterdam, Bob will buy $100USD worth of bitcoin, regardless of how many bitcoins he receives.

The total market required for day to day exchanges is an absolute minimum value of the bitcoin.  This is obviously only one factor in the bitcoin value, but it is a clear counter example to your claim.
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
July 05, 2011, 02:06:34 PM
#27
This is ridiculous... it's rising again. Perhaps a good time to buy some BTC Wink
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1031
Rational Exuberance
July 05, 2011, 01:50:00 PM
#26
Here's a cartoon showing what is going on:



Just replace "a stock" with "bitcoins".
sr. member
Activity: 387
Merit: 250
July 05, 2011, 01:28:02 PM
#25
I think the price will stabilize at the cost of electricity for mining at the current difficulty level, multiplied by some markup to pay for hardware and time, say 20%-50%.  Miners located in areas with cheap electricity will have an advantage.

Bitcoins are like any other commodity, with both supply and demand. Few miners will sell at a loss, and those that do will quickly leave the market, leaving miners that price their bitcoins at an acceptable profit range, where it's still worth participating in the market.

I've seen various calculations that cost of electricity is around $1.50/bitcoin at a recent difficulty level, so I think with a few more increases in difficulty, bitcoin will be somewhere in the $5 range.  The 1000% markup that was happening at the $17 level just can't last.
sr. member
Activity: 464
Merit: 250
July 05, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
#24
aye noticed that about hardware.... and people are holding out on there prices. when you can get better cheaper else ware.

aye I just w8 for a shift and ride the waves. sometimes I am right sometimes I am wrong... Hopefully this time I am right.

for me its how little of my own cash I have to risk. All my profit is from the markets or mining so if the market crashed tomorrow I would of lost nothing.

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 05, 2011, 12:43:21 PM
#23
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.

yea if the price drops I normally buy some more depending on how much of a risk. that way it it has to go up less to make yourself come out even.

anyway 12.40 is around my magic number.

That is what I was always taught by people who actually end up making money...panic sellers are the same ones who tell you not to invest ever.

Agree. Don't invest what you cannot afford to loose. And be ready to take risks and hopefully mine has just paid off. Sold at 17odd bought at 12.40 was hoping it would go lower but its at 12.70 now.

I know what my next sell point is at lets see if it goes that high... Hmm wonder if any miners are panic selling hardware.

There are always (supposed) miners panic selling equipment...I never see any reasonable prices.  It's always "...I want out now (but I want ebay new prices for my used cards) bitcoin is failing, I am getting out while I can (but pay me top dollar)..."

It's pretty clear by viewing the market depth what the real market value is ($14+)...but there are a few hundred btc keeping the "last sold" price down.  If I had the money that is how I would control the market also...make people panic and buy more.
sr. member
Activity: 464
Merit: 250
July 05, 2011, 12:37:19 PM
#22
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.

yea if the price drops I normally buy some more depending on how much of a risk. that way it it has to go up less to make yourself come out even.

anyway 12.40 is around my magic number.

That is what I was always taught by people who actually end up making money...panic sellers are the same ones who tell you not to invest ever.

Agree. Don't invest what you cannot afford to loose. And be ready to take risks and hopefully mine has just paid off. Sold at 17odd bought at 12.40 was hoping it would go lower but its at 12.70 now.

I know what my next sell point is at lets see if it goes that high... Hmm wonder if any miners are panic selling hardware.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
July 05, 2011, 12:05:19 PM
#21
@ Slipperyslope or anyone that knows...

 Dumb question here, but what's to prevent the botnet operator from creating his own mining pool that is exclusivly used by the bots?  
Botnet wranglers I think are lazy people who would rather focus their talents on no-competition illegal activities, than on something economically profitable and legal.

However, there is no technical reason that I know of to prevent the formation of a pool with unlawful miners.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 05, 2011, 11:58:03 AM
#20
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.

yea if the price drops I normally buy some more depending on how much of a risk. that way it it has to go up less to make yourself come out even.

anyway 12.40 is around my magic number.

That is what I was always taught by people who actually end up making money...panic sellers are the same ones who tell you not to invest ever.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
July 05, 2011, 11:56:49 AM
#19
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.
That sounds great and all, but it doesn't really make sense. The price may never come back up, in which case he would lose far more by not selling now. Taking a small loss is better than losing everything.

Of course in this case prices will more than likely be back up in a few days, but that's another topic.

That's why I included those two exceptions in the original post.  Losing a little money over and over again can lead to losing it all.  Also, the number one rule of trading is to not use money that you aren't willing to lose.
sr. member
Activity: 464
Merit: 250
July 05, 2011, 11:54:14 AM
#18
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.

yea if the price drops I normally buy some more depending on how much of a risk. that way it it has to go up less to make yourself come out even.

anyway 12.40 is around my magic number.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
July 05, 2011, 11:54:08 AM
#17
You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.
No, if you realise the loss, it falls still lower, and you buy in then, your loss is minimised. The fact you're already sitting on a loss shouldn't stop you selling if you think it's going lower still.

That still doesn't negate the fact that you lose money if you sell lower than you buy.  You don't know what is going to happen in the future, so waiting to buy in doesn't guarantee that the price won't keep dropping.  What's better than minimizing a loss is not accepting a loss.  That's the reason most day traders fail.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
July 05, 2011, 11:51:37 AM
#16
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.
That sounds great and all, but it doesn't really make sense. The price may never come back up, in which case he would lose far more by not selling now. Taking a small loss is better than losing everything.

Of course in this case prices will more than likely be back up in a few days, but that's another topic.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
July 05, 2011, 11:48:28 AM
#15
@ Slipperyslope or anyone that knows...

 Dumb question here, but what's to prevent the botnet operator from creating his own mining pool that is exclusivly used by the bots?  

Nothing...it would have to be quite the botnet to compete with the current pools.  Btcguild for instance is ~2500gh/s...when its running that is.
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
July 05, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
#14
You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.
No, if you realise the loss, it falls still lower, and you buy in then, your loss is minimised. The fact you're already sitting on a loss shouldn't stop you selling if you think it's going lower still.
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 252
Until the end
July 05, 2011, 11:40:45 AM
#13
@ Slipperyslope or anyone that knows...

 Dumb question here, but what's to prevent the botnet operator from creating his own mining pool that is exclusivly used by the bots?  
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
July 05, 2011, 11:40:01 AM
#12
Well I bought in at 16.10 and just sold at 13.00 after mtgox kept going down, now the price is very unstable got to 12.50 now it's at 13.00

You only lose money trading if you sell lower than you buy.  The only exception to this is if a company goes bankrupt or the price never recovers.  This goes for any market.

If the price drops below what you bought it for, just WAIT.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
July 05, 2011, 11:01:18 AM
#11
There should be a way to exclude botnets...
For example, some kind of notification once a week that's hardcoded into the miner. Also, pools should only accept miners that have this notification feature (e.g. by checking the hash of the miner code).
At least, this would ensure that the pools are bot-free...
Further, the original Bitcoin client should have the same feature.

I know that this would only temporarily stop the botnetters, but at least it gives us time to invent a better solution to protect the real Bitcoiners from hordes of Bots.
My mining operation is currently affected by the botnet problem.  Here is my understanding of what is being discussed on the BTCGuild pool thread.

A botnet consisting of thousands of nodes was configured by its operator to conduct CPU mining and used BTCGuild as the pool.  These CPU mining workers earned a very low amount of coins each, but in total overwhelmed the pool servers operated by BTCGuild.  As a result of analyzing the situation, the BTCGuild operator blacklisted the IP addresses of the CPU miners - no doubt affected a few legitimate miners who do not care about inefficient mining.

The botnet operator, now denied his bitcoin earnings from BTCGuild, retaliated by performing a distributed denial-of-service attack against BTCGuild.  In such a DDoS attack, each botnet node pretends to be a real pool mining client, but floods the victim server with an overwhelming number of fake requests - thus precluding access by the legitimate clients.

At the time of this post, BTCGuild is offline, and being enhanced to cope with this DDoS attack.  Details can be obtained from the BTCGuild forum thread in the pool section.

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