Original criticism of Bitcoin was that it can't be truly decentralized. Note the solution offered below is also not decentralized because it can be gamed.
http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf
Topic: Multiple competing currencies platform design (Read 2979 times)
10 useless coins won't, but several useful coins will.
@altcoinUK
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
Hopefully you will succeed James, ans I can't wait to see the result.
Except, and which I forgot to mention in my post, what make you think James that if you put together 10 absolutely useless coins then together those coins would make more sense than they do individually? The coins of Supernet have absolutely no real nor sensible use cases (especially not Opal your crown jewellery which will not be tolerated by law enforcement), those coins that used by absolutely nobody in real world except a few day traders who manipulate the price for pure P&D reasons, so why do you think linking the coins in your Supernet could change the absolutely hopeless dynamics of the altcoin market?
James is Not just collecting coins, but devs. 400+ person thinktank.
Yeah, I am aware of that, and regardless of my mixed opinion on James - that he is quite a charlatan terms of how he push his projects and in the meantime he is a very intelligent professional, and productive project organizer and developer - the question remains, why do you think 10 absolutely useless coins thinktanked by +400 strong team will create a useful thing? No matter how many people dream about it, if the use case and consequently end users are not there then the whole initiative is flawed.
@altcoinUK
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
Hopefully you will succeed James, ans I can't wait to see the result.
Except, and which I forgot to mention in my post, what make you think James that if you put together 10 absolutely useless coins then together those coins would make more sense than they do individually? The coins of Supernet have absolutely no real nor sensible use cases (especially not Opal your crown jewellery which will not be tolerated by law enforcement), those coins that used by absolutely nobody in real world except a few day traders who manipulate the price for pure P&D reasons, so why do you think linking the coins in your Supernet could change the absolutely hopeless dynamics of the altcoin market?
James is Not just collecting coins, but devs. 400+ person thinktank.
altcoinUK, indeed there needs to be demand for an altcoin to succeed. 
@altcoinUK
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
Hopefully you will succeed James, ans I can't wait to see the result.
Except, and which I forgot to mention in my post, what make you think James that if you put together 10 absolutely useless coins then together those coins would make more sense than they do individually? The coins of Supernet have absolutely no real nor sensible use cases (especially not Opal your crown jewellery which will not be tolerated by law enforcement), those coins that used by absolutely nobody in real world except a few day traders who manipulate the price for pure P&D reasons, so why do you think linking the coins in your Supernet could change the absolutely hopeless dynamics of the altcoin market?
@altcoinUK
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
Hopefully you will succeed James, ans I can't wait to see the result.
One opportunity no one in Bitcoin universe talks about
You simply can't have the Bitcoin asset go to $10 million (under the false conditions of that false assumption stated above) without killing several billion people.
That is why you must have derivatives if you realistically want to scale in the world's wealth.
Sounds like hyperbole...No one thinks Bitcoin will (or even should) go to $10M per coin by 2015...come on dude.
I agree. My posts in this thread are about how to increase interest and capital involved in Bitcoin ecosystem while reducing volatility and supporting a normal rise in the price consumerate with rapidly growing ecosystem and adoption.
Yet the supporters of Bitcoin attack it. Go figure
Apparently some readers are too stupid (or closed-minded Butthurt) to distinguish an enhancement from a criticism.
Just goes to show you can fool a dog to fight his own tail (and lick his balls and his anus).
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/12/04/why-central-banks-buy-equities/
There isn't enough liquidity in the Bitcoin asset to accomodate the $200 trillion net worth. Just $10 billion (actually much less because a market cap is greater than the actual cash invested in the asset during an all time high price, since not everyone paid the highest price) caused Bitcoin to have a severe bubble and crash in 2013.
The only way the liquidity can scale orders-of-magnitude faster is decentralized financial derivatives:
https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/White-Paper#financial-derivatives-and-stable-value-currencies
Non-technical n00bs don't understand the technical meaning of "scale", so n00bs please don't waste my time with your nonsense.
There isn't enough liquidity in the Bitcoin asset to accomodate the $200 trillion net worth. Just $10 billion (actually much less because a market cap is greater than the actual cash invested in the asset during an all time high price, since not everyone paid the highest price) caused Bitcoin to have a severe bubble and crash in 2013.
The only way the liquidity can scale orders-of-magnitude faster is decentralized financial derivatives:
https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/White-Paper#financial-derivatives-and-stable-value-currencies
Non-technical n00bs don't understand the technical meaning of "scale", so n00bs please don't waste my time with your nonsense.
You simply can't have the Bitcoin asset go to $10 million (under the false conditions of that false assumption stated above) without killing several billion people.
That is why you must have derivatives if you realistically want to scale in the world's wealth.
Sounds like hyperbole...No one thinks Bitcoin will (or even should) go to $10M per coin by 2015...come on dude.
I agree. My posts in this thread are about how to increase interest and capital involved in Bitcoin ecosystem while reducing volatility and supporting a normal rise in the price consumerate with rapidly growing ecosystem and adoption.
Yet the supporters of Bitcoin attack it. Go figure
Apparently some readers are too stupid (or closed-minded Butthurt) to distinguish an enhancement from a criticism.
Just goes to show you can fool a dog to fight his own tail (and lick his balls and his anus).
Thank for those who have more knowledge about derivatives taking the time to make some explanations. Admittedly my patience was too short to elaborate sufficiently.
It doesn't really matter that some people are ignorant of the utility of derivatives, because they will always gravitate to what is succeeding.
And derivatives boost the ecosystem by orders-of-magnitude, because a large portion of the business world can't participate without them. No hedging, sorry they can't do Bitcoin.
It doesn't really matter that some people are ignorant of the utility of derivatives, because they will always gravitate to what is succeeding.
And derivatives boost the ecosystem by orders-of-magnitude, because a large portion of the business world can't participate without them. No hedging, sorry they can't do Bitcoin.
Quote
In other words, I propose an option system where there is no centralized counter party risk. The protocol makes sure settlement occurs before margin is depleted.
That's essentially the point of the counterparty protocol.
For decentralised bets you can use certainly make use of it.
In Counterparty, I can't hold my value in any altcoin (because I like the features of that altcoin, e.g. anonymity, transaction rate, more trusted, etc) and then have my value pegged to any unit-of-account. Thus Counterparty can not do (entirely) what I have proposed.
That's a futarchy protocol, for predicting the future, although it does use schelling points to determine the truth of boolean facts.
I had proposed that each contract could choose a different feed instead of a consensus feed (e.g. schellingcoin); however, these feeds will cause consensus verification (e.g. mining) nodes to incur a resource cost (to access the external feed). So there would need to be some standardization of choices of feeds, centralization of propagation of the feeds into the network, and the cost the parties need to pay for this. Again this is yet another evidence that decentralized consensus is a lie and further reinforces the point of my OP about true decentralization.
In other words, I am saying we are probably doing everything wrong. Throw away PoW, PoS, and all that (but my proposal doesn't prevent their participation and they are welcome to attempt to prove me wrong in the market place).
Note I corrected the answer on a Google IQ test in which the correct answer I provided is in its generative essence the same logic as Schelling points:
http://unheresy.com/Essence%20of%20Genius.html
In other words, I am saying we are probably doing everything wrong. Throw away PoW, PoS, and all that (but my proposal doesn't prevent their participation and they are welcome to attempt to prove me wrong in the market place).
It is also possible to run schellingcoin
Note I corrected the answer on a Google IQ test in which the correct answer I provided is in its generative essence the same logic as Schelling points:
http://unheresy.com/Essence%20of%20Genius.html
Quote
You're the captain of a pirate ship...
The answer given above is incorrect. If you offer all the booty to 51% of the crew, one of them might get motivated to vote against your proposal because they have nothing to lose if your proposal wins (and they might want to try their luck at another proposal that offers them more). Contemplate that deeply! Whereas, the correct answer is to propose that anyone who votes NO will not share in the booty. TADA!
The answer given above is incorrect. If you offer all the booty to 51% of the crew, one of them might get motivated to vote against your proposal because they have nothing to lose if your proposal wins (and they might want to try their luck at another proposal that offers them more). Contemplate that deeply! Whereas, the correct answer is to propose that anyone who votes NO will not share in the booty. TADA!
Quote
In other words, I propose an option system where there is no centralized counter party risk. The protocol makes sure settlement occurs before margin is depleted.
That's essentially the point of the counterparty protocol.
For decentralised bets you can use certainly make use of it. I touched upon it briefly in the following comment:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10565006
There is functionality in the protocol for more advanced Contracts for difference and such. It is also possible to run schellingcoin (or similar) on CounterParty as a smart contract instead.
perhaps this is somewhat relevant to your multiple competing currencies platform design:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bc-kZXROTeMzG6AvH7rrTrUy24UwHoEcgiL7ALHMO0A/pub
Some enthusiasm here. I had never heard about SkyCoin before.
We are working on a fun project called the Free Services Exchange.
Can you add or request some free services from us?
We are working on a fun project called the Free Services Exchange.
Can you add or request some free services from us?
James we will have to discuss the synergies and specifics. We will get to that.
You guys exchanging crypto 'fluids' together is very exciting!! Might finally put this bear market behind us.
edit: on 2nd thoughts I think you guys could change the crypto landscape, and the world
James we will have to discuss the synergies and specifics. We will get to that.
@altcoinUK
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
InstantDEX is in testing now, it builds on the NXT AE that has been working for almost a year. So this is something that already exists. The InstantDEX is designed to enhance it to make it usable like a centralized exchange, in fact we are starting the first GUI using peatio which is open source centralized exchange software. Of course we are removing all the KYC and other centralized things, but the GUI is similar to most exchanges: yunbi.com/markets/nxtbtc
It seems that via different path's Anonymint and I have come to similar conclusions as what is needed, of course since I am not having formal educations, my words are using my meanings and I cant write whitepapers. Still this is the final missing piece that is needed for mass market adoption of crypto. And there will be more than one crypto that survives, so it makes perfect sense to have a framework for cryptos to connect with each other, either directly at the protocol layer or via indirect market mechanisms
Anyway, I still have a month or two of debugging to get SuperNET core into testing for all my major components, so until then this project is to be percolating.
James
So you are quite right - if I got that correctly - that the first step would be to implement reliable decentralized exchanges.
Why don't you use guys your very impressive intellect identify more realistic targets and implement something that useful and works?
Why don't you use guys your very impressive intellect identify more realistic targets and implement something that useful and works?
That is my point.
My other point is not to bet the farm on one algorithm or design for currency and instead build a platform for cryptocurrency in general. Synergies apply in spades, e.g. true decentralization which drives demand for the network, which drives demand for the underlying investment coin. Please if you want to discuss it further, please post here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/multiple-competing-currencies-platform-design-966977
Also of course there needs to be a specific currency involved in order for there to be an investment opportunity. And I have simplified idea for that and for how to drive demand for that coin not just from investors but more so from users of the network, because they will need the coin to use the network. No cryptocurrency yet has had a built in user demand mechanism. So actually I disagree with you. I don't think security is the main reason for limited adoption. I have an another idea. The masses (naive users) don't think about security, so it isn't something that limits adoption. Sorry that is poor marketing insight.
No cryptocurrency yet has had a built in user demand mechanism.
Edit: maybe SuperNet. Afair it has a coin, but I am not too clear on the specifics. I believe my idea is different.
As usual, I will need to have some private discussions with James to understand his non-standard terminology. I must admit I don't understand what he just wrote.
That is why I don't want to do that now, because my past experience is it requires considerable discussion before I understand what he means.
That is why I don't want to do that now, because my past experience is it requires considerable discussion before I understand what he means.
I didn't read that whitepaper, but if I understand correctly how a DHT would be used in this scenario, it means everyone knows which IP addresses map to given hash in the DHT (because they need to know which IPs to send the copies of the encrypted message and only the destination IP knows how to decrypt it).
Just wanted to clarify this point. The assumption that the IP address is known is not necessarily true. What I do with Telepathy is send an encrypted packet with an additional encrypted payload and send it to a deaddrop address that belongs to no node and therefore no IP address.This deaddrop address belongs to nobody but it has a special property, it is within the n-dimensional R-ball so that by modifying the DHT routing logic a bit, it can be assured that the actual intended node routes the packet following the rules all nodes follow. There are no servers and all the nodes are peers. And each node has a public node address that is bound to an IP so the DHT routing works, but the private comms are to the deaddrop address that is close to the private address. As the network grows the number of possible destinations continues to grow (surface/volume ratio)
It is true that with multiple communications sequences an intersection of online nodes that are within the R-ball can be created, but if the deaddrop address is shared within a neighborhood, this becomes like a public phone in a public square. The phone rings, but nobody answers it. Still the message is sent as only the intended destination is able decrypt the extra encrypted payload. Even in a network with a high percentage of attacker nodes, there is no definitive indication that any message was received.
By making a new private address and a corresponding new deaddrop address, correlations over time are prevented.
On the sending side, it is possible to inject a DHT from a random node send via onion packet, so the origin of a telepathic packet has the entire network as the anon set.
By breaking the link between IP address and destination node, not even the sender knows the IP address of the destination, nor do any of the other nodes that do the routing of the DHT.
James
And yes we are headed into a shit storm and need to get focused on the priorities that make the most significant impact against what we are facing within a year. Consensus algorithms are not the highest priority near-term need. The major need is anonymity of the communication network. We don't have that on the internet and we REALLY NEED IT BADLY.
Is this what are you talking about?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/kim-dotcoms-uncensored-internet-vs-supernet-960490
I mean this:
http://bitcoindark.pw/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/crossing_the_last_mile_-_telepathy_2014-11-04.pdf
I had shared with James (jl777) some suggestions or opinions on his Teleport design several months ago. I see from the link you provided he has now added a DHT to segment the PIR (everyone sees everything, e.g. BitMessage) space of the anonymity set, because PIR can't scale otherwise. Note James and I have recently renewed our private discussions since it seems we share some of the same goals. I don't yet know if we will work together. He and I are both busy on preexisting projects for the next month or so.
I didn't read that whitepaper, but if I understand correctly how a DHT would be used in this scenario, it means everyone knows which IP addresses map to given hash in the DHT (because they need to know which IPs to send the copies of the encrypted message and only the destination IP knows how to decrypt it).
If I am correct, then this means the hidden servers would be known within the proximity of a few dozens (or 100 or so) IP addresses. Whereas with a pure high-latency onion layer design, the anonymity set is the entire network. So from the standard point of protecting Silk Road type hidden servers from the authorities (note the recent crackdown on low-latency Tor hidden servers where Tor failed spectacularly![1]), then I think a pure onion layer design is superior to the DHT design or a combination of onion layer + DHT. If I remember correctly, James was using the PIR only at the exit nodes. He may have felt this is a way to add more anonymity, and I forget his logic on that. Any way, he and I can cover that in discussions. I asked him today if we could wait until we both have completed our preexisting work load, before digging into deep technical design details.
I am here now to discuss any overviews like this. For as long as it doesn't drag too much on my time for programming.
As for other details about the suitability of Teleport to the need I have outlined, I reserve judgement until I've had a chance to look closely. Surely there will need to be changes. For example, I doubt he is using double encryption with quantum proof McEliece as I have proposed. Teleport might be quite suitable as a first attempt at providing a secure communication for NXT and the SuperNet. I make no judgement on that. My goals are broad in scope. By "multiple currencies", afaics that can include NXT, Bitcoin, and any other currency.
[1] I don't think Tor failed only because it is low-latency. There are a litany of possibilities for failure of Tor, and having exit nodes probably leads to correlation attacks. That Tor is free and thus arguably a honey pot is another likely factor.
https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/hidden-services
https://blog.torproject.org/blog/hidden-services-need-some-love
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