Incidentally in many countries there is an offence of "theft by finding". Examples from the UK:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8315980/Woman-accused-of-theft-after-taking-Tesco-rubbish.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1166411/Student-finds-mobile-phone-celebrating-18th-ARRESTED-handing-police.html
Topic: My friend got 60 extra BTC from his Mt Gox account and insists it is not theft. (Read 4665 times)
June 30, 2011, 06:39:35 AM
June 30, 2011, 06:31:53 AM
MtGox recently posted some adjustments to people's accounts, to bring the balance equal to the sum of the transactions.
Before assuming that your friend has 60 extra BTC in his account, look back to the early transactions to see whether there is 60 BTC missing. Perhaps your friend didn't notice the discrepancy at the time, due to the lower value of BTC back then.
My MtGox account was credited with some "extra" Gox dollars, but when I looked back to my very first transaction, it didn't show the Gox dollars that should have been on that transaction. The adjustment was actually balancing out that problem, and the resulting balance is probably correct now.
Before assuming that your friend has 60 extra BTC in his account, look back to the early transactions to see whether there is 60 BTC missing. Perhaps your friend didn't notice the discrepancy at the time, due to the lower value of BTC back then.
My MtGox account was credited with some "extra" Gox dollars, but when I looked back to my very first transaction, it didn't show the Gox dollars that should have been on that transaction. The adjustment was actually balancing out that problem, and the resulting balance is probably correct now.
June 29, 2011, 07:10:39 PM
I only used MtGox once.
I deposited 10.00 BTC, sold it, bought it back a little cheaper and tried to withdraw, but it told me I couldn't withdraw because of some problem with PayPal. I never used PayPal with MtGox; I don't think they even support it. I reported it to them and they ignored me. I think the problem may have been that my USD balance was -$0.01 after I tried to spend all my USD for BTC. So I sold the bitcoins again and bought them back a little cheaper again. This time my USD balance was $0.00 and I was able to withdraw my 10.17 BTC. So I made a 17 bitcent profit, realised I had been risking considerably more than I gained, and decided to stop messing about. My closing balances were $0,00 and 0,00 BTC.
Then the hack happened, and I went through the 'reclaim my account' process just to see how it worked.
When I got back in, I had $0.002 and 0.008 BTC. I used to have nothing.
It's not enough to worry about, but it makes me think that something is wrong, and if they can get my zero balances a little bit wrong I'm sure they can get other people's balances much more wrong.
I like https://britcoin.co.uk/ - it's commission free, and allows free bank transfers in and out (for UK banks).
I deposited 10.00 BTC, sold it, bought it back a little cheaper and tried to withdraw, but it told me I couldn't withdraw because of some problem with PayPal. I never used PayPal with MtGox; I don't think they even support it. I reported it to them and they ignored me. I think the problem may have been that my USD balance was -$0.01 after I tried to spend all my USD for BTC. So I sold the bitcoins again and bought them back a little cheaper again. This time my USD balance was $0.00 and I was able to withdraw my 10.17 BTC. So I made a 17 bitcent profit, realised I had been risking considerably more than I gained, and decided to stop messing about. My closing balances were $0,00 and 0,00 BTC.
Then the hack happened, and I went through the 'reclaim my account' process just to see how it worked.
When I got back in, I had $0.002 and 0.008 BTC. I used to have nothing.
It's not enough to worry about, but it makes me think that something is wrong, and if they can get my zero balances a little bit wrong I'm sure they can get other people's balances much more wrong.
I like https://britcoin.co.uk/ - it's commission free, and allows free bank transfers in and out (for UK banks).
June 29, 2011, 06:55:57 PM
There was a riot in the city, after electricity shutdown. My friend join the crowd and take some nice plasma TV from broken shop. He believes that was not a theft. That Shop owner should think better on safety measures in that case.
June 29, 2011, 05:21:13 PM
So, I'll put in a fictitious claim that you stole them from "my friend". Now it is theft and there is a bit-block trace between accounts, and you are an accomplice.
Receiving something not rightfully yours = problem. Just ask the bank that accidentally deposited $10M into an account and the person skipped to China.
Receiving something not rightfully yours = problem. Just ask the bank that accidentally deposited $10M into an account and the person skipped to China.
June 29, 2011, 05:12:35 PM
This reminds me of a time about 3 years ago. I woke up one morning, went along with my daily routines then checked my bank account to find there had been $150,000 deposited into my account. It sat there for a couple weeks, so I started spending(about 1 grand). About 2 weeks after that, The money disappeared and I was in $500 overdraft on that account. Taking money that is not rightfully yours == theft. I learned the hard way.
June 29, 2011, 04:51:09 PM
If a $750 lesson in bitcoins helps you learn to keep things that are important to you in life secure, it's a lesson well learned. Its not much worse than getting your car broken into with a $500 deductible.
June 26, 2011, 11:25:14 PM
There is such a thing as "found money". In the US, if you report it to the Police an nobody claims it during a certain period of time, it's yours.
Now, I wonder what would happen if a "found" amount of Bitcoins would be reported. How could someone make a legitimate claim to it?
Now, I wonder what would happen if a "found" amount of Bitcoins would be reported. How could someone make a legitimate claim to it?
June 26, 2011, 11:42:35 AM
4.94 of those are probably mine. They still aren't showing up in my account. Which makes me wonder how many more people like me still don't have all of their coins.
I'd bet a dollar that after a certain time period, any unclaimed ones go into Mt. Cox's wallet. I'd go one step further, and say they're already there, and they will just pay out AS they are claimed.
Well I've had a support ticket open since I was able to login on their "claims" site. 3 days ago. Still no response. Getting real tired of all this shit personally.
June 26, 2011, 11:41:02 AM
lol i seriously hope you're joking since MtGox is giving me a headache just to get my 20 btc back that were stolen as a result of their security leaks...
June 26, 2011, 11:40:31 AM
Lol. Like they can't figure out who this person is by doing a search query for 65 bitcoin transaction && $200 account
June 26, 2011, 11:37:40 AM
4.94 of those are probably mine. They still aren't showing up in my account. Which makes me wonder how many more people like me still don't have all of their coins.
I'd bet a dollar that after a certain time period, any unclaimed ones go into Mt. Cox's wallet. I'd go one step further, and say they're already there, and they will just pay out AS they are claimed.
June 26, 2011, 11:35:50 AM
4.94 of those are probably mine. They still aren't showing up in my account. Which makes me wonder how many more people like me still don't have all of their coins.
June 26, 2011, 11:33:26 AM
I would argue that it is theft. Someone else on Mt Gox was likely shorted in this mismanagement, and now the BTC has been removed from the system so that it cannot be easily undone.
Also i would call 60BTC a big deal, thats $918 USD at current rates, and more than i mine in 2 months with my 5970 at current difficulty.
BTC cant be magically duplicated in database error, so somewhere someone is getting screwed, whether its a user or Gox itself.
Also i would call 60BTC a big deal, thats $918 USD at current rates, and more than i mine in 2 months with my 5970 at current difficulty.
BTC cant be magically duplicated in database error, so somewhere someone is getting screwed, whether its a user or Gox itself.
1. It's theft
2. current difficulty sux
3. Gox has more than enough to cover it. They shouldn't come out of this unscathed.
June 26, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
It doesn't matter anyways, since exchanges aren't regulated. You can call it whatever you want, but it's a legitimate transaction in the bitcoin world. If money goes from person A to B and is validated by the blockchain, then the transaction is irrevocable, valid, and OK. It's as legal and fine as banks adjusting your mortgage based upon the contract you signed without reading
June 26, 2011, 08:44:37 AM
Erm...
?
?
June 26, 2011, 07:56:58 AM
Your friend should have informed Mt. Gox, and if they either said there was no problem, or decided not to do anything about it, only then should he have felt free to do what he pleased.
I once ordered something on ebay for $500, and it turned out that the seller's account had been hacked, and several people (including myself) were being ripped off. I freaked out, and opened a case with Paypal, but I also had my bank reverse the payment (from my checking account).
When all was said and done, Paypal actually refunded me $500 twice. I explained to them what they had done wrong, but they said that their records did not indicate anything was wrong, so they could not do anything to correct it. So I was up $500 after the incident. Not bad, since I was trying to buy a gift card.
I once ordered something on ebay for $500, and it turned out that the seller's account had been hacked, and several people (including myself) were being ripped off. I freaked out, and opened a case with Paypal, but I also had my bank reverse the payment (from my checking account).
When all was said and done, Paypal actually refunded me $500 twice. I explained to them what they had done wrong, but they said that their records did not indicate anything was wrong, so they could not do anything to correct it. So I was up $500 after the incident. Not bad, since I was trying to buy a gift card.
June 26, 2011, 07:46:25 AM
I don't know if that was your friend or you, doesn't matter. But I hope you do realize that giving quite exact info about balances narrows it down to very few accounts.
June 26, 2011, 04:29:45 AM
lol- as soon as i read this thread i knew it was the same person, didn't even have to check.
June 26, 2011, 04:25:45 AM
pretty weird you have so many friends that have unusual things happen to their accounts at mt. gox:
My friend's account at Mt Gox was successfully claimed by *someone else*.
https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22150
My friend's account at Mt Gox was successfully claimed by *someone else*.
https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22150
We really need to find a way to stop trolls, this is getting out of control.
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