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MaNI

sr. member

Activity: 275

Merit: 250

Quote from: Altcoinfanatic on July 06, 2015, 12:28:56 PM

Guldencoin is only fair if you do not change the rules of the game aka screwing late adopters forever.

The change actually ensures that more coins will be available for late adopters instead of all of them being mined in the next year or two (early adopters). So it is the exact opposite of 'screwing late adopters'. It is the standard, lots of coins in first year or two followed by halving's and almost no coins after that which 'screws late adopters'

It is also very over simplistic to say this is about manipulation and I question the motives of anyone who says so.

Due to the messed block targeting Guldencoin was happily producing 'X' coins a day, and the market was happy, the block targeting changes 'fixed' this and we are now producing 'Y' coins a day, it is quite clear that the market preferred 'X' coins a day and that 'Y' is too many as for most of the coins life it has been producing 'X' it can be argued that at this point leaving it at 'Y' would be allowing a large downward manipulation which will benefit nobody except a few rich early adopters.

One needs to consider also the ecosystem of merchants etc. that people have been working very hard to build, and this is more what Guldencoin is about than being some commodity to invest in. If the market continues to be flooded with coins rapidly now and then in a few years the coins completely dry up, nobody is going to spend any more at either point as neither massive increases or decreases is good in a currency that people actually hope to spend, with nobody spending the merchants will slowly start to pull out, everything will slowly unravel, this is nothing to do with a small group of people having 'faith' it is simple market reality. It would be completely silly to throw away all this hard infrastructure work over some silly pretence that some values that were set a year and a half ago were the right ones, when it is quite clear they are not.
A stable reward with a stable price is going to be much better for a merchant infastructure, Guldencoin had previously a stable price for a very long time and this is what allowed it to get where it is now.

EFLisTheBest

newbie

Activity: 32

Merit: 0

Quote from: Altcoinfanatic on July 06, 2015, 12:28:56 PM

Quote from: BioMike on July 06, 2015, 10:40:12 AM

In long term the dumping is not a problem. We're just 1,5 year in the run and people are panicking that it isn't worth 50 euro's each like every other scam coin. Have people lost faith in NLG that much, that they see manipulation as the only solution?

Totally argee you cannot just change the rules middle of the game. We are better than this.
Guldencoin is only fair if you do not change the rules of the game aka screwing late adopters forever.
I had no problems with changing the difficulty retarget system. Going Multi-pow or even POS is no problem for me but the proposal done now is a shameless manipulation. Have faith or Guldencoin will be doomed! All early adopters wanting this change, hope this to happen to get rich. They only think of profit and not thinking of the potential and the damage it will do. In the end it is the loyal supporters that counts.

Shame, shame, shame..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_TN7oAA_U

+1 . Don't change the rewards. It's not fair to some of the dutch investors who went for efl. Guldencoin doesn't need low supply to succeed. Why take the only advantage away efl investors had? If you care about other dutch citizens you won't make this change.

Altcoinfanatic

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Quote from: BioMike on July 06, 2015, 10:40:12 AM

In long term the dumping is not a problem. We're just 1,5 year in the run and people are panicking that it isn't worth 50 euro's each like every other scam coin. Have people lost faith in NLG that much, that they see manipulation as the only solution?

Totally argee you cannot just change the rules middle of the game. We are better than this.
Guldencoin is only fair if you do not change the rules of the game aka screwing late adopters forever.
I had no problems with changing the difficulty retarget system. Going Multi-pow or even POS is no problem for me but the proposal done now is a shameless manipulation. Have faith or Guldencoin will be doomed! All early adopters wanting this change, hope this to happen to get rich. They only think of profit and not thinking of the potential and the damage it will do. In the end it is the loyal supporters that counts.

Shame, shame, shame..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_TN7oAA_U

EFLisTheBest

newbie

Activity: 32

Merit: 0

Quote from: BioMike on July 06, 2015, 10:40:12 AM

In long term the dumping is not a problem. We're just 1,5 year in the run and people are panicking that it isn't worth 50 euro's each like every other scam coin. Have people lost faith in NLG that much, that they see manipulation as the only solution?

I agree. Keep supply as is and work with what you have.

Dutchyyy

legendary

Activity: 1197

Merit: 1001

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Dutchyyy on July 06, 2015, 11:16:10 AM

Bless you guldencoin team. At least you have brains to see there was a problem! My faith is restored.

Mine too! For a while I was like, okay, so now I am becoming a Guldencoin bagholder? Almost blew my confidence and willingness to invest in this thing away. But fortunately common sense took over and the price is now stabilising at higher levels, where it belongs Wink

This will be much better for distribution instead of 10 people holding majority of the coins after 4 years. Early adopter already benefiting but we can't be greedy. Look at EFL , 1 or 2 big holders and supply almost finished.

Dutchyyy

legendary

Activity: 1197

Merit: 1001

Bless you guldencoin team. At least you have brains to see there was a problem! My faith is restored.

Litesire

sr. member

Activity: 458

Merit: 500

Quote from: Frais on July 06, 2015, 07:25:39 AM

From the official Guldencoin forum: https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126

Quote

Delta is a success, it functions very well and it causes more stability. Time to look forward. The Guldencoin dev-team is now working on the next update, bringing our codebase to the same level as Bitcoin. This means that we get important bugfixes and new functions like Multi-Sig wallets and Smart Contracts, more on that later.

Within and also without the dev-team the conversation about Guldencoin’s specifications has sparked and in particular the amount of NLG that comes onto the market daily by mining. 18 months ago I thought that a daily volume of 576000 NLG should come on the market. I couldn’t predict the future and if this amount would be the perfect fit or not. You can only see that at a later stage, and that is where we are now.

A lot more knowledge has come on board. We have an incredible dev team that really knows what’s important for Guldencoin. And that is daily use. And that is why there is much talk about the daily amount of NLG coming onto the market. We think that it is too much. And we see that in the value. For me personally value doesn’t say much, but it is important for use. New users and merchants will look at the value. Buying a pizza for 10.000 or 1000 NLG is a big difference.

A lot of thinking has gone into this, but to say it quickly: we want to change the daily volume that comes onto the market. Our maximum of 576000 NLG a day is barely reached now due to multipools. It’s more like 300000 NLG per day now. Our proposal is reducing the daily amount to about 30000 to 50000 NLG.

Daily amount NLG
Officially: 576000
In reality: 300000
After change: 30000 - 50000

Total amount of NLG after 40 years
Officially: max 1700 million
In reality: max 1830 million
After change: max 1260 million

Besides that we want to bring this to market gradually, so people that get into Guldencoin at a later stage can still get a decent amount, opposed to Bitcoin. WaterLooDown will tell you more about this.

This is a huge change that will have both short-term and long-term consequences for Guldencoin. Short-term there will most likely be a price surge, because there is less supply. But the most important thing is a better balance between supply and demand, which in turn will cause more stability. This stability is very important. There are a lot of fantastic projects that would normally cause a healthy increase in value. But because of the tremendous amount of NLG this isn’t the case, and that’s disappointing for everyone. Not because there isn’t a speedy increase in value, but it’s disappointing because a stable increase in value is important for all of these projects.

We want to address new users and that is very hard now by the absense of a steady and healthy growth. It’s time to switch gears.

It’s a very huge change and I’ve only addressed a few aspects of it. Our devs will give you more information and we would like to know what you all think. This is, of course, a change we would only follow through on if the majority is in favor of this change.

Thanks Frais for this good news, the coins that will suffer when the bitcoin price goes to 1000 is the high supply ones that will then need to trade with LTC as there prices get forced under 1 satoshi.

Litesire

sr. member

Activity: 458

Merit: 500

Quote from: BioMike on July 06, 2015, 10:40:12 AM

In long term the dumping is not a problem. We're just 1,5 year in the run and people are panicking that it isn't worth 50 euro's each like every other scam coin. Have people lost faith in NLG that much, that they see manipulation as the only solution?

The only manipulation I saw was the large address on bittrex forcing the price down. The announcement caught this person by surprise and they lost over 500k coins, so it wasn't the multipools doing the damage to the price. Find out who the owner of that address is and you have your reason for the price being forced down.

BioMike

legendary

Activity: 1658

Merit: 1001

In long term the dumping is not a problem. We're just 1,5 year in the run and people are panicking that it isn't worth 50 euro's each like every other scam coin. Have people lost faith in NLG that much, that they see manipulation as the only solution?

Svener

hero member

Activity: 502

Merit: 500

Quote from: EFLisTheBest on July 06, 2015, 09:05:01 AM

Quote from: pijpenstelen on July 06, 2015, 08:57:37 AM

Why didn't you invest in guldencoin before? It's a great coin and with the only mental block being high rewards people can finally open there eyes and see what this coin has going for it already!

The dev should of started a new coin and let this one die. Everyone know the supply was crushing this coin so no one invested.

How can you say that, a lot of people have invested in this coin.

Svener

hero member

Activity: 502

Merit: 500

I have to admit something, I was planning to sell all my NLG to go to bytecent as I like the fact bytecent has constant reward and the reward is low. Chris is doing a good job there, guldencoin is my favourite alt but I was losing hope because of the over supply. So I am sticking around for the long term knowing this team has the coins best interests in mind and prepared to make tough choices for the good of the coin. Well done!

Altcoinfanatic

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Quote from: MaNI on July 06, 2015, 09:27:44 AM

Or maybe they know it is not more secure but don't care

This is exactly what i'm afraid for. Thanks for the quality answer, i will buy some more nlg.

MaNI

sr. member

Activity: 275

Merit: 250

Quote from: Altcoinfanatic on July 06, 2015, 09:04:19 AM

Gracias!
Very lenghty and satisfying answer.
So basicly it is not true that the security of multi-pow coins like myriadcoin and digibytecoin are better than standard single-algo coins? Why do they market themselves with better security? Is it to trick people? I have bought many DGB so i hope it was a good choice.

It is my feeling that they are not more secure but then that depends on various things.
Has Myriad attracted more hash in its current form than it would have if it were yet another single-algo coin? Yes, probably, and this alone possible makes multi-algo more secure for that specific unique scenario (at least for now - maybe not after the hype wears off?) though not for subsequent coins that do the same thing necessarily.

As for why they marketed themselves as having better security, perhaps they believe(d) it to be true, either because they missed something (it happens to the best of us) which is easy to do in a complex code base, especially if you are not 100% familiar with how everything gels together, or because they know something I don't ,only time will tell on that one I guess - However I'd rather be wrong about it being insecure than assume it is secure and be wrong on that, the second has far worse consequences.

Or maybe they know it is not more secure but don't care, I don't know the people in question so I can't say anything for sure.
While I don't believe I am mistaken about multi-algo nothing is impossible so I am not going to point fingers at other people, but rather I am going to focus on what is important from my perspective, from my perspective I care only about the coins on which I work and I will not implement something that I do not believe will 100% work for this coin in the long term.

So I'm afraid these are not really questions I can answer for you in a meaningful way, they are things you should ask yourself or take up with the developers of the coins in question

Bluestreet

legendary

Activity: 988

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Frais on July 06, 2015, 07:25:39 AM

From the official Guldencoin forum: https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126

Quote

Delta is a success, it functions very well and it causes more stability. Time to look forward. The Guldencoin dev-team is now working on the next update, bringing our codebase to the same level as Bitcoin. This means that we get important bugfixes and new functions like Multi-Sig wallets and Smart Contracts, more on that later.

Within and also without the dev-team the conversation about Guldencoin’s specifications has sparked and in particular the amount of NLG that comes onto the market daily by mining. 18 months ago I thought that a daily volume of 576000 NLG should come on the market. I couldn’t predict the future and if this amount would be the perfect fit or not. You can only see that at a later stage, and that is where we are now.

A lot more knowledge has come on board. We have an incredible dev team that really knows what’s important for Guldencoin. And that is daily use. And that is why there is much talk about the daily amount of NLG coming onto the market. We think that it is too much. And we see that in the value. For me personally value doesn’t say much, but it is important for use. New users and merchants will look at the value. Buying a pizza for 10.000 or 1000 NLG is a big difference.

A lot of thinking has gone into this, but to say it quickly: we want to change the daily volume that comes onto the market. Our maximum of 576000 NLG a day is barely reached now due to multipools. It’s more like 300000 NLG per day now. Our proposal is reducing the daily amount to about 30000 to 50000 NLG.

Daily amount NLG
Officially: 576000
In reality: 300000
After change: 30000 - 50000

Total amount of NLG after 40 years
Officially: max 1700 million
In reality: max 1830 million
After change: max 1260 million

Besides that we want to bring this to market gradually, so people that get into Guldencoin at a later stage can still get a decent amount, opposed to Bitcoin. WaterLooDown will tell you more about this.

This is a huge change that will have both short-term and long-term consequences for Guldencoin. Short-term there will most likely be a price surge, because there is less supply. But the most important thing is a better balance between supply and demand, which in turn will cause more stability. This stability is very important. There are a lot of fantastic projects that would normally cause a healthy increase in value. But because of the tremendous amount of NLG this isn’t the case, and that’s disappointing for everyone. Not because there isn’t a speedy increase in value, but it’s disappointing because a stable increase in value is important for all of these projects.

We want to address new users and that is very hard now by the absense of a steady and healthy growth. It’s time to switch gears.

It’s a very huge change and I’ve only addressed a few aspects of it. Our devs will give you more information and we would like to know what you all think. This is, of course, a change we would only follow through on if the majority is in favor of this change.

This has made my month. 100% behind this decision, please let me know if I can donate or contribute to projects being worked on by the devs or community. Very happy man today!

MaNI

sr. member

Activity: 275

Merit: 250

Quote from: EFLisTheBest on July 06, 2015, 08:33:57 AM

I am sorry but this not very fair to the EFL community that invested in the coin because of the low rewards. A lot of us would of invested in guldencoin if we knew this was going to take place. Sure I bought some coins up just now but there will be others very angry.

Absolute fairness is great as an ideal but completely impractical and unachievable in reality. Would it be fair on those who have already invested to either leave things to continue on the wrong path or give up entirely? Life I am afraid is full of compromises, it is very rare to find yourself making a decision that is not going to be 'unfair' for somebody, this is why concepts of greater good etc. exist.

A quote that comes to mind "If you're not pissing someone off, you probably aren't doing anything important"

pijpenstelen

sr. member

Activity: 407

Merit: 250

Quote from: EFLisTheBest on July 06, 2015, 09:05:01 AM

Quote from: pijpenstelen on July 06, 2015, 08:57:37 AM

Why didn't you invest in guldencoin before? It's a great coin and with the only mental block being high rewards people can finally open there eyes and see what this coin has going for it already!

The dev should of started a new coin and let this one die. Everyone know the supply was crushing this coin so no one invested.

The dev should of started a new coin and let this one die.
What are you smoking?

Everyone know the supply was crushing this coin so no one invested.
Yes, this is why they making the change genius!

EFLisTheBest

newbie

Activity: 32

Merit: 0

Quote from: pijpenstelen on July 06, 2015, 08:57:37 AM

Why didn't you invest in guldencoin before? It's a great coin and with the only mental block being high rewards people can finally open there eyes and see what this coin has going for it already!

The dev should of started a new coin and let this one die. Everyone know the supply was crushing this coin so no one invested.

Altcoinfanatic

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Quote from: MaNI on July 06, 2015, 08:46:21 AM

Quote from: Altcoinfanatic on July 06, 2015, 08:12:40 AM

Can we get an official statement by MaNI if the multi algo design on coins like Myriadcoin and Digibyte is flawed also? Or is it a secret?

After looking into it extensively and much internal debate we have decided that multi-algo as it currently stands is flawed from a security perspective. While it sounds good on the surface there are some rather complex implementation issues in reality which have become apparent while looking at the code, that we are not satisfied can be solved in a reasonable way, or at least I am not confident I can solve them and I feel it is good to know your limits

I don't want to go into too much technical details but most of the flaws revolve around the fact that 'difficulty' is a somewhat arbitrary measurement, while it can be used to meaningfully compare two blocks from the same algorithm to one another, there is no real relation between the difficulties of two different algorithms. i.e. It is not really meaningful to say that a 500 difficulty Scrypt block is worth more or less than a 500 difficulty Groestl block. While it can be determined with some analysis for a specific moment in time with some work it requires a level of 'perfect information' that is not compatible with a p2p crypto currency type system, and even I as a human cannot tell you for a fact that the answer I give you now will still be the same in say six months time.
I have looked at various proposals to try and solves these issues, and what several coins have done and have found theoretical problems and flaws with all of them.
Putting those issues aside there is then the market related issue as well, which is that if you have e.g. 3 algorithms, your reward for each algorithm is 1/3, this is quite likely to attract 1/3 of the hash power for each algorithm, possible even less so in a way even if we can solve the technical issues it is not necessarily going to help form a security perspective.

This is not to say that multi-algo is 'completely broken' the above are of course theoretical i.e. it is not 100% completely trivial to attack a multi-algo coin, and you would still need a reasonable hash rate for at least to do so, so I would not begin a complete panic about other coins. Perhaps time will show differently that the worries are unfounded.
However I would not personally use such an important coin as NLG on which to test theories, I can not in good concious recommend anything that is not 100% theoretically air tight.
There are also some 'non ideal' steps that can be taken to help prevent some of the issues which may involve lots of frequent changes to the coin which we do not want... whether other coins will do this or not depends on the coin.

It is my belief that the security would be likely worse or at best 'on par' with a standard single-algo coin, especially after taking the market factors into account, we don't want to implement something we are not 100% happy with, and we are not 100% happy with multi-algo at this point based on the flaws that have been uncovered, and based also on the possibility that there may be further flaws we are missing (Given that multi-algo has a higher complexity than single algo, simplicity is a desirable characteristic where possible)

We do however feel that the current single-algo is also not ideal, unless we can begin to attract far more hash power, so we are keeping a close eye on this while also looking into other options still.
A potential 'PoS' solution is on the cards, it would likely be added as a compliment to the current 'PoW' so we would end up with two algorithms, however again we must first do our homework and ensure we are completely happy with it before we implement it, so I don't want to make any guarantees just yet.
We will of course continue to look into all avenues to see what is best in the end.

Gracias!
Very lenghty and satisfying answer.
So basicly it is not true that the security of multi-pow coins like myriadcoin and digibytecoin are better than standard single-algo coins? Why do they market themselves with better security? Is it to trick people? I have bought many DGB so i hope it was a good choice.

patrickkivits

newbie

Activity: 49

Merit: 0

Quote from: pijpenstelen on July 06, 2015, 08:06:54 AM

Quote from: Frais on July 06, 2015, 07:25:39 AM

From the official Guldencoin forum: https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126

Quote

Delta is a success, it functions very well and it causes more stability. Time to look forward. The Guldencoin dev-team is now working on the next update, bringing our codebase to the same level as Bitcoin. This means that we get important bugfixes and new functions like Multi-Sig wallets and Smart Contracts, more on that later.

Within and also without the dev-team the conversation about Guldencoin’s specifications has sparked and in particular the amount of NLG that comes onto the market daily by mining. 18 months ago I thought that a daily volume of 576000 NLG should come on the market. I couldn’t predict the future and if this amount would be the perfect fit or not. You can only see that at a later stage, and that is where we are now.

A lot more knowledge has come on board. We have an incredible dev team that really knows what’s important for Guldencoin. And that is daily use. And that is why there is much talk about the daily amount of NLG coming onto the market. We think that it is too much. And we see that in the value. For me personally value doesn’t say much, but it is important for use. New users and merchants will look at the value. Buying a pizza for 10.000 or 1000 NLG is a big difference.

A lot of thinking has gone into this, but to say it quickly: we want to change the daily volume that comes onto the market. Our maximum of 576000 NLG a day is barely reached now due to multipools. It’s more like 300000 NLG per day now. Our proposal is reducing the daily amount to about 30000 to 50000 NLG.

Daily amount NLG
Officially: 576000
In reality: 300000
After change: 30000 - 50000

Total amount of NLG after 40 years
Officially: max 1700 million
In reality: max 1830 million
After change: max 1260 million

Besides that we want to bring this to market gradually, so people that get into Guldencoin at a later stage can still get a decent amount, opposed to Bitcoin. WaterLooDown will tell you more about this.

This is a huge change that will have both short-term and long-term consequences for Guldencoin. Short-term there will most likely be a price surge, because there is less supply. But the most important thing is a better balance between supply and demand, which in turn will cause more stability. This stability is very important. There are a lot of fantastic projects that would normally cause a healthy increase in value. But because of the tremendous amount of NLG this isn’t the case, and that’s disappointing for everyone. Not because there isn’t a speedy increase in value, but it’s disappointing because a stable increase in value is important for all of these projects.

We want to address new users and that is very hard now by the absense of a steady and healthy growth. It’s time to switch gears.

It’s a very huge change and I’ve only addressed a few aspects of it. Our devs will give you more information and we would like to know what you all think. This is, of course, a change we would only follow through on if the majority is in favor of this change.

This plan looks much better for short and long term of guldencoin and new users will never feel they missed out. I don't know what the future holds for bitcoin when rewards keep halving. This is much better plan for stability and banks can't say it won't work because of deflation every 4 years. What new services is Patrick talking about?

https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126/4

The services i am referring to are the tools we build to help adoption and use of Guldencoin like Nocks.nl for instance. There are a lot of other services that are scheduled too beeing released in the foreseeable future.

pijpenstelen

sr. member

Activity: 407

Merit: 250

Quote from: EFLisTheBest on July 06, 2015, 08:33:57 AM

Quote from: Frais on July 06, 2015, 07:25:39 AM

From the official Guldencoin forum: https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126

Quote

Delta is a success, it functions very well and it causes more stability. Time to look forward. The Guldencoin dev-team is now working on the next update, bringing our codebase to the same level as Bitcoin. This means that we get important bugfixes and new functions like Multi-Sig wallets and Smart Contracts, more on that later.

Within and also without the dev-team the conversation about Guldencoin’s specifications has sparked and in particular the amount of NLG that comes onto the market daily by mining. 18 months ago I thought that a daily volume of 576000 NLG should come on the market. I couldn’t predict the future and if this amount would be the perfect fit or not. You can only see that at a later stage, and that is where we are now.

A lot more knowledge has come on board. We have an incredible dev team that really knows what’s important for Guldencoin. And that is daily use. And that is why there is much talk about the daily amount of NLG coming onto the market. We think that it is too much. And we see that in the value. For me personally value doesn’t say much, but it is important for use. New users and merchants will look at the value. Buying a pizza for 10.000 or 1000 NLG is a big difference.

A lot of thinking has gone into this, but to say it quickly: we want to change the daily volume that comes onto the market. Our maximum of 576000 NLG a day is barely reached now due to multipools. It’s more like 300000 NLG per day now. Our proposal is reducing the daily amount to about 30000 to 50000 NLG.

Daily amount NLG
Officially: 576000
In reality: 300000
After change: 30000 - 50000

Total amount of NLG after 40 years
Officially: max 1700 million
In reality: max 1830 million
After change: max 1260 million

Besides that we want to bring this to market gradually, so people that get into Guldencoin at a later stage can still get a decent amount, opposed to Bitcoin. WaterLooDown will tell you more about this.

This is a huge change that will have both short-term and long-term consequences for Guldencoin. Short-term there will most likely be a price surge, because there is less supply. But the most important thing is a better balance between supply and demand, which in turn will cause more stability. This stability is very important. There are a lot of fantastic projects that would normally cause a healthy increase in value. But because of the tremendous amount of NLG this isn’t the case, and that’s disappointing for everyone. Not because there isn’t a speedy increase in value, but it’s disappointing because a stable increase in value is important for all of these projects.

We want to address new users and that is very hard now by the absense of a steady and healthy growth. It’s time to switch gears.

It’s a very huge change and I’ve only addressed a few aspects of it. Our devs will give you more information and we would like to know what you all think. This is, of course, a change we would only follow through on if the majority is in favor of this change.

I am sorry but this not very fair to the EFL community that invested in the coin because of the low rewards. A lot of us would of invested in guldencoin if we knew this was going to take place. Sure I bought some coins up just now but there will be others very angry.

Why didn't you invest in guldencoin before? It's a great coin and with the only mental block being high rewards people can finally open there eyes and see what this coin has going for it already!

Topic: NA - page 185. (Read 893610 times)