Nations should impose special taxes on oil firms: UN Secretary General - page 2.

Gozie51

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Quote from: Poker Player on August 08, 2022, 02:00:47 AM

This is part of the more general problem of inflation, which also has a very clear solution, which always works: reduce government spending, lower taxes and raise rates as much as necessary, much more than they are now.

I don't think reducing tax is one sure way to fight inflation. Tax is one of the ways to check inflation that whether to reduce or to increase, so it can work in both ways. If the oil revenue is soaring for oil companies because of the wars and they are generating high income then the best way to shave some of those monies to avoid increase inflation is to push tax up for high income earners that will touch including those oil companies this can be in both ways. Likewise in interest rates it, the interest in borrowing can be increased to also decrease the cash flow.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 07, 2022, 07:45:06 PM

While this might sound all nice and liberal, it's a fucking horrible idea. Taxes shouldn't be used as a political weapon, to redistribute wealth, or to do anything other than fund the government, and if increases are needed because of the need for more money, then those increases ought to be fair and rational.

The "excessive profits" phrase really got me there. In whose eyes is any profit excessive? That's something only a socialist would say.

In the end it is a socialist measure offered as a solution to a problem created by socialism. The war has exacerbated the problem but the increase in energy prices started earlier, and it has a very clear solution: make it easier for companies to extract oil and compete with each other.

This is part of the more general problem of inflation, which also has a very clear solution, which always works: reduce government spending, lower taxes and raise rates as much as necessary, much more than they are now.

Ozero

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Quote from: WeedGoW on August 05, 2022, 10:11:08 AM

Yeah, tax the rich I mean the oil firms and see how they will just increase the price to cover back their loss in tax. After the covid pandemic, I have a strong distrust for all of the UN officials because most of them still keep their seats at the UN but doing a shitshow of it. How about we fire them, reduce the UN contribution then use that money to subsidize fuel/oil prices till Russia and Ukraine war sort out? At best, maybe 6 months from now on till Russia is out of their tanks, supplies, and conscripts. What do you guys think? I think it sounds better than increasing tax on the oil firms.

At least the UN is already expressing some unrealistic proposals for implementation, and not only its deep concern and verbal condemnation of the illegal actions of other states. Even in this case, we see that the UN has no real powers, and therefore this organization has long been outdated and is subject to either liquidation or a radical transformation. Now the world needs an international organization with great powers and lightning-fast reaction and efficiency.
Most likely, in this case, it is necessary to oblige the oil giants not to exceed the price of oil by more than a certain fixed amount, because raising taxes will not lead to the desired consequences.

Die_empty

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Quote from: virasisog on August 06, 2022, 11:15:57 AM

I certainly agree with it. Only ordinary people would suffer from it because the prices of our daily necessities would increase either. It will make our situation worst. The inflation crisis has been hitting us hard and if they will tax oil, it will only drag us suffer more than what we could bear. Most of us are just grinding each day to survive and this plan will surely hit poor people.

But these companies are making a hell lot of profit. The government can insist that they should not increase the price of there products and still pay these special taxes. If the activities of this firms are not regulated, these companies can instigate instabilities in more countries because they know they would make profit from those conflicts. There should be a way of making them give support to the suffering masses.

dothebeats

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If countries impose more taxes on oil firms, wouldn't this result to higher gas prices too? I mean, it is unfortunate that these things are happening across the globe, but I bet that oil firms don't really want this to happen (except those Russian dudes lol). Also, what's the gurantee that these special taxes would be put to good use? If anything this can fund the pockets of the corrupt government official and leave not a single penny to the common man.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: Die_empty on August 05, 2022, 04:22:41 AM

Recently, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has called on nations to impose special taxes on oil and gas companies because of this excessive profits and use the funds to support the poorest and most vulnerable people through these difficult times.

While this might sound all nice and liberal, it's a fucking horrible idea. Taxes shouldn't be used as a political weapon, to redistribute wealth, or to do anything other than fund the government, and if increases are needed because of the need for more money, then those increases ought to be fair and rational.

The "excessive profits" phrase really got me there. In whose eyes is any profit excessive? That's something only a socialist would say.

Quote from: inthelongrun on August 07, 2022, 03:51:14 PM

The problem is most government officials are not serving the huge chunk which is the ordinary people but they are serving these giant companies and powerful people that funded their campaigns or influenced their appointments.

That's true--and it's very fucked up--but that doesn't mean the idea of taxing corporations when their profits happen to be extraordinary is a good one. Or a fair one.

inthelongrun

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Most of the time the most popular brands are used as examples. The biggest oil companies nowadays are not all controlled by the west but by China and who will miss Saudi Arabia's giant Aramco?

There are a lot of replies already and pretty sure it's mentioned too that putting an additional tax on these giant companies will only make them raise their oil prices too. In the end, it is the common people that will suffer and pay the imposed additional tax.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 07, 2022, 10:43:23 AM

The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) will only increase the oil price to absorb the taxes that they have to pay. They are the giants who are making the rules for the different governments. Roll Eyes

I will rather put pressure on governments to remove all the fuel levies and fees and taxes that are added to the petrol and gas prices ....that are one of the main factors that are inflating the fuel prices. Angry

The problem is most government officials are not serving the huge chunk which is the ordinary people but they are serving these giant companies and powerful people that funded their campaigns or influenced their appointments.

Kakmakr

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The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) will only increase the oil price to absorb the taxes that they have to pay. They are the giants who are making the rules for the different governments. Roll Eyes

I will rather put pressure on governments to remove all the fuel levies and fees and taxes that are added to the petrol and gas prices ....that are one of the main factors that are inflating the fuel prices. Angry

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Quote from: Hydrogen on August 05, 2022, 07:26:01 PM

Fossil fuels are usually heavily subsidized by the state.

Image link: https://i.ibb.co/crNVFJ5/oil-subsidies.jpg

https://subsidizinggreen.blogspot.com/2011/12/history-of-subsidies-in-united-states.html

Rather than raise taxes. In the united states, it would make more sense to simply cut subsidies.

Giving free handouts to oil companies in the form of subsidies while simultaneously raising taxes on oil. Increases inefficiency.

People don't care about this that much. They think it doesn't affect them. But one day they will wake up and realize it does greatly affect them and their standard of living. And hopefully they will take this issue more seriously then.

If the subs given to them gets cut, then there will be some of them who will hold the political parties responsible for it and increase their price. It is like a blackmail, give us some money so we give the oil for cheaper, and if you do not do that, there will be double of that coming out of people’s pockets.

What should be done instead is regulation. If you end up saying "this is the max price you could sell a gallon of oil for" then it will be fine, our nation does that and it works. Sure, it makes oil companies make less profit, but they do make a profit and that’s what business should suppose to be, making profit, not skinning the milk out of everyone that have to pay.

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We have seen cases in which after taxes has been imposed, the companies go ahead to adjust price or reduce quantity so as to make up for the tax they paid. Oil is a very necessary commodity for everyday living and as such lessons need be learned from the Russian/Ukrainian war In how over dependence on one source for oil and gas can lead to inflation for those dependent countries all over Europe. A friend of mine was of the notion that creating competition so as these companies understand the value of preference is valid.
If the UN secretary general imposes the special tax on these oil firms, the final consumer gets to bear the brunt. If more oil firms are built, the need to impose special taxes will be almost unnecessary.

virasisog

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Quote from: Mr.right85 on August 05, 2022, 05:52:16 AM

The question here is,

Would it really help?

Imposing taxes on these firms doesn't mean they still won't have to take it off the masses. I don't think they wnt go about paying whatever taxes that is imposed on them but the issue here is, it would lead to an increase in price for the various oil products they offer and in the end, the citizens would still be the once to suffer.
It doesn't make any much difference. I think nations that have got oil should look towards more local production of these resources, get their refineries working and the livelihood of their citizens would be improved.

I certainly agree with it. Only ordinary people would suffer from it because the prices of our daily necessities would increase either. It will make our situation worst. The inflation crisis has been hitting us hard and if they will tax oil, it will only drag us suffer more than what we could bear. Most of us are just grinding each day to survive and this plan will surely hit poor people.

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Quote from: Darker45 on August 06, 2022, 12:09:35 AM

There's so much we can hate about capitalism, yes; but I wonder, which alternative, which truly works in reality, is better? The system which precedes capitalism like mercantilism was definitely not as free. Or should we opt for socialism? Or, is the idea of free market realistic, and could actually be translated into real day-to-day commerce?

That's the million dollar question, and I'm afraid there may not be any correct answer to that because I believe any route we take will get corrupted eventually and people will find a way to exploit it. Of course it is easier to exploit some systems than others. Maybe the solution should be sought in a better and independent lawmakers and regulatory body that is not easily corrupted to redefine the laws that favor those with "power".

The problem isn't only in economics, take democracy for example. It is good on paper but in practice it is the worst thing that has happened to humanity, since we place the fate of a nation in the hands of millions of uneducated people who vote with their emotions for the candidate that has fooled them better than the rest (ie. exploited the system).

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Quote from: palle11 on August 05, 2022, 11:18:53 AM

I understand that to tax is to reduce the earning strength of who is in concern so that there is lesser money circulating to avoid increase inflation but if the UN secretary Antonio guteres is making this statement, it doesn't make any much meaning because these companies also have budget for social responsibilities which also goes back to their host countries.

You are right that tax will reduce their income because they are earning too much. This is what they say the rich only get richer while the poor can become poorer but in order to stop that from happening, those countries who haven't imposed a tax yet in oil should do it so that the money that people spend in oil can also be returned to them later on. I think this won't make the circulation of money lesser but the money can circulate more if let say the government can redistribute the tax in the form of cash assistance.

Quote

but if the UN secretary Antonio guteres is making this statement, it doesn't make any much meaning because these companies also have budget for social responsibilities which also goes back to their host countries.

They have their own budget but it does not mean that other countries will only depend on them or other countries won't do the same thing. It just feels not right.

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 05, 2022, 01:02:41 PM

Quote from: Darker45 on August 05, 2022, 05:43:28 AM

The ordinary people are tightening their belts, now more than ever, because everything comes with a higher price now. And yet businesses are unaffected, declaring double digit growth in profit. Why? Because all else are passed on to the consumers. Business people don't compromise their profit.

That's one of the damages capitalism has done to the world. The minority who own all the money also control everything else including the law and regulations. Which is why in countries with the worst case of capitalism they also pay the least amount of taxes, sometimes even 0 taxes!
These special taxes are also not going to fix anything partly because Guterres is talking for himself lol but also because worse case scenario for these big companies is increasing prices to cover that tax.

There's so much we can hate about capitalism, yes; but I wonder, which alternative, which truly works in reality, is better? The system which precedes capitalism like mercantilism was definitely not as free. Or should we opt for socialism? Or, is the idea of free market realistic, and could actually be translated into real day-to-day commerce?

Anyway, I agree with you that this special tax is not going to address anything. If at all, it will only further burden the consuming public. After all, as I've said, everything will only be passed on to them. You impose more tax responsibilities on them, they will simply increase prices and things will continue running smoothly from their end.

edgycorner

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How about imposing such tax on conglomerates in all industries that would rather utilize their profit in creating a monopolistic landscape instead of paying their employees(read AMAZON).

Anyhow, carbon tax is a better alternative than such "grotesque tax" scheme. At least it will force companies to be environment conscious

PaulBf1

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You're basically advocating for punishing oil companies by imposing new taxes on them just because they turned more profit ? how is this even legal.

Going by your logic (or UN's logic for that matter), US should also tax apple,amazon or google if they happen to make more profit this year right ?

Hydrogen

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Fossil fuels are usually heavily subsidized by the state.

Image link: https://i.ibb.co/crNVFJ5/oil-subsidies.jpg

https://subsidizinggreen.blogspot.com/2011/12/history-of-subsidies-in-united-states.html

Rather than raise taxes. In the united states, it would make more sense to simply cut subsidies.

Giving free handouts to oil companies in the form of subsidies while simultaneously raising taxes on oil. Increases inefficiency.

People don't care about this that much. They think it doesn't affect them. But one day they will wake up and realize it does greatly affect them and their standard of living. And hopefully they will take this issue more seriously then.

hugeblack

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Imposing taxes on these companies will result in additional costs over the price of oil, because in most cases, countries will charge that cost to individuals and will not pay it, and therefore oil bills will increase for the individual even if they obtain government support.
The best solution is to rationalize consumption as much as possible and support global stability, as there are areas in Libya and Venezuela that are rich in oil, but political problems are what make supplies stop.

As for the natural gas problem, it is a separate and complex crisis.

pooya87

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Quote from: Darker45 on August 05, 2022, 05:43:28 AM

The ordinary people are tightening their belts, now more than ever, because everything comes with a higher price now. And yet businesses are unaffected, declaring double digit growth in profit. Why? Because all else are passed on to the consumers. Business people don't compromise their profit.

That's one of the damages capitalism has done to the world. The minority who own all the money also control everything else including the law and regulations. Which is why in countries with the worst case of capitalism they also pay the least amount of taxes, sometimes even 0 taxes!
These special taxes are also not going to fix anything partly because Guterres is talking for himself lol but also because worse case scenario for these big companies is increasing prices to cover that tax.

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Quote from: Die_empty on August 05, 2022, 04:22:41 AM

source

Due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine oil price skyrocketed triggering inflation and high cost of goods and services. But this unfortunate condition is favoring the oil and gas companies. While households are grappling with higher energy bills, companies are reaping the benefits.This quarter four of the biggest energy firms - Exxon, Chevron, Shell and TotalEnergies - earned nearly $51bn almost doubling what they earned last year.

Recently, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has called on nations to impose special taxes on oil and gas companies because of this excessive profits and use the funds to support the poorest and most vulnerable people through these difficult times.

The British and Italian government have imposed these special taxes but the US and French government is rejection this move stating that it might still lead to increase in domestic energy cost and might scare investors away from the industry.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62415904

It's quite ironic to put taxes on these people because these companies aren't going to pay the taxes themselves they will eventually shift the burden of tax to the customers which will ultimately increase the overall price of the oil and increase inflation even more. So I don't think it's a very wise decision to do so. Unless you can bring a law that they can't even pass the effect of this on the consumers.

Topic: Nations should impose special taxes on oil firms: UN Secretary General - page 2. (Read 373 times)