Topic: Need Help - Looking for 240v Power Surge Protection (Read 1428 times)

Surge electrical current will take a lowest impedance (not low resistance) path to earth.  That path starts in a cloud (three miles up) and connects to earthborne charges (maybe four miles distant).   If that path remains outside, then all appliances are protected.

To keep that current outside, a connection from an incoming path (ie AC electric wire) must be as low impedance as possible to earth.  But that impedance can never be low enough.

50 meter separation means a higher impedance between protector and appliance.  Higher impedance created by separation means another and lower impedance connection to earth is a better path.  IOW protection increases due to higher impedance when a path from incoming AC electric wire and properly earthed protector has many times lower impedance on a less than 10 foot connection to earth.

Protection is always about this conductivity. When a best connection to those charges (four miles away) is a low impedance connection to earth, then almost no current need fight through high impedance on a 50 meter wire.  Then that current need not be inside.

That is conductivity.  Another relevant factor is equipotential.  Equipotential is why only one earth ground (single point earth ground) must exist.  Since we cannot make sufficient conductivity, then improve equipotential.  Since we cannot make sufficient equipotential, then better conductivity is required.

Best protection for cable TV is a hardwire connecting low impedance from cable to earth ground.  No protector is required.  Telephone wires cannot connect directly to earth.  So your telco installs a 'whole house' protector, for free.  That protector is only doing what the hardwire does better.  Effective protector does not do protection.  Effective protector is a connecting device to what does protection - earth ground.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

What sometimes makes it so difficult to grasp are the many erroneous concepts that promote plug-in protectors.  Those are sold as if a protector does protection.  The concept is difficult to unlearn.  Protection is not about the box.  The box is only a connecting device.  Protection is something not sold in stores - earth ground.  Unlearning what advertising promotes can be hard.

I think I understand now.  Correct me, if I'm wrong ... I know you will ... Lol.  My confusion was in two places, I believe.  Firstly, I thought you were advocating pdu's and after re-reading a couple of times, I don't think that you are.  The other thing that was confusing me was the 50 meter figure.  

Am I correct in assuming that a properly installed whole house protector should be grounded to earth, not a safety ground, and less than 10 feet from ground earth to be effective?  But this is not protecting the breaker box, because it is too close?  

The whole house protector is protecting the devices due to the adjacent distance (ie, your 50 meter figure in the telecom center example)?  

And then on to PDU's ... I'm not completely clear on what you are saying about them, but I think you are saying that they have no connection to ground earth, which I think causes them to be ineffective protectors of the devices that are plugged into them?  And that one that only protects against a surge of 580 joules, isn't really even necessary, because the built in protection to modern electronic devices has no problem protecting the device from 600 joule surges all day long?

I'm not sure why I am having such a difficult time understand this, but at least part of it seems to be coming together for me now.  If I'm still way off, tell me that I'm an idiot, so I can continue trying to figure this out.

I was never angry.  I just like to say fuck in pretty much every other sentence that I type.  I love the word fuck.  Sorry for your inconvenience.  You are just misleading in your wording.  First you say one thing, but it doesn't apply to another.  That is the confusing part and that is what will make someone angry.  And I did re-read your thesis statement, but it was at such a high level, I didn't understand it the first few times.  Most people with a high level of knowledge in anything are mentally retarded in a legal aspect.

Ten feet is nothing!  50 meters is a lot!  Be clear (on the subject) and move on, unless you enjoy acting retarded. 

I think you've pretty much wasted alot of our time here.  Didn't need a super-micro or super-macro analysis on the subject.

Apparently you want to be brainwashed.  Soundbyte answers are for brainwashing.  High school graduates are supposed to know better.

Required is basic electrical knowledge as learned by high school graduates.  You are expected to remember science concepts such as what Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago.  And what was taught about electricity in elementary school science.

Numbers require more knowledge.  Joules requires high school science.

Nothing new is understood until after three or more rereads.   Apparently you only read once - and then entertain anger.

Obviously said a 'whole house' solution is best protection. Apparently you want to argue rather than read.  That best solution also costs tens of times less - about $1 per protected appliance  What makes an protector effective?  That low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth.  One need not be an electrician to understand 10 feet.  That does not mean 5 pairs of shoes. But those who post profanity often have comprehension problems.  Read without that emotion and profanity.

Everything has been explained. Nobody is going to spoon feed you.  Keep rereading until you finally get it.

I mean, for fucks sake ... I told you earlier that I'm not an electrician.  I just want an explanation in a couple of paragraphs that a normal person can understand.  I realize that you have a very high level of knowledge on the subject, but you didn't always have that high level of knowledge.  You started somewhere, so speak as if you were teaching someone with a basic level of knowledge.

I'm still trying to understand.  Now you're saying that no additional protection is necessary?  Everything should have the proper protection built in with the exception of protection against an anomaly which may happen every seven years?

I think I understand ... A whole house surge protector cannot protect a fuse/breaker box because it's too close to it's earth ground?  I mean, mine is in my garage on the first floor of my house, so it's approx 5 feet from ground earth.  

But a whole house surge protector is far away from my miners on the second floor, so it would provide better protection to my electronics than a PDU, due to distance from earth ground?

If true, we are all reading numbers in your post.  How many surge damaged appliances have you replaced this week or year?  No just appliances that failed.  You also identified what was damaged inside and what the current path of that surge was.  We did that even decades ago.  Which is why this post bluntly confronts so many only educated by hearsay, advertising, wild speculation, assumptions, no electrical knowledge, and junk science reasoning.

Why are you not replacing clocks, dishwasher, smoke detectors, garage door opener, furnace, and GFCIs daily?  You must if logic has validity.  A completely different reality exists once we include layman simple facts such as specification numbers.  Your concern is for an anomally that might occur once every seven years.  Because all those appliances already have robust protection (and no internal protector parts).

Hereeeeeeeeeeeee comes OVERKILL. Lol ... Are you insane dude?  You may be a genius level electrical engineer, but you know absolutely nothing about risk vs. cost effectiveness analysis for small scale operations.  Surge protection is a huge concern for electronics in the typical home environment.

It cannot protect a breaker/fuse box.  It is too close.  Best protection (ie found in every Telco switching center) is up to 50 meters distant from electronics.  Separation increases protection (as defined by a concept called impedance).

A scam is easy to promote.  If a protector is adjacent, then it is effective.  Reality.  A protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground is least (ineffective) protection.  It can even compromise what is better protection already inside every appliance.

By dismissing what was only speculation, now reread why a properly earthed solution is effective.  Why protectors do not do protection.  And why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Only then does one have an answer to this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

So bascially those whole house surge protectors that they sell at Lowe's and Home Depot aren't worth the money that you would spend on them because they only protect the breaker/fuse box? Because nothing is protected unless the device you are protecting is plugged directly into the protector?  I'm not an electrician, but I would think that it adds another layer of protection.  Am I wrong?

To sum it all up ... No whole house surge protection is necessary, but you should use a PDU between the outlet and your miner, because the PDU will protect the miner directly?  Is that what you are saying?  I still don't completely understand why having both a pdu for your rigs and whole house surge protection isn't the optimal solution.

Every power supply that meets ATX standard is superior to so many less robust or just as at risk appliances.  What protected the dishwasher, dimmer switches, furnace, door bell, vacuum cleaner, GFCIs, dryer, toaster, LED & CFL bulbs, garage door opener, central air, and clocks?  Why are those not replaced every month or year?  Because all appliances (especially all power supplies that meet ATX standards) remain function for decades.  How often this year have you replaced surge damaged smoke detectors?

All appliance contain robust protection.  Concern is for a rare anomaly, maybe once every seven years, that might damage some.  That is why informed consumers spend $1 per protected appliance for the properly and properly earthed 'whole house' solution.

Blaming the supply is too often due to not even identifying why a failure occurs.  Most ATX supply failures are due to manufacturing defects - which no surge protection (not even effective and properly earthed) can avert.

ATX power supply is a most robust electrical device.  Those other appliances are at much greater risk.

I would anchor my kayak in some moving rapids at the end of the day.  Then sit there, facing upstream, watching raging water (and sometimes other boats) flow by while enjoying a beer.

One time, water had risen by a few feet (a dam release).  Suddenly I could no longer go up front to pull up that anchor.  The kayak would submarine.

I remember this next thought quite distinctly.  I have no idea how I am going to get out of this one.  Best part was waiting to learn how I did.  I had no doubt the problem would be solved.  And absolutely not a clue how it would.

That comes from years of addressing technical problems - especially electronics.  Having no idea how it was going to get fixed.  And yet knowing, without doubt, that I would solve it.

At the end is always this revelation.  Both obvious and simple.  I no longer ask, "Why did you not see it before?"  Because in life, simple and obvious solutions always follow what we never knew was possible.

Same applies to surge protection.  Most have never learned how protection really works.  Most only wait to be told how to think.  And therefore would still be anchored in those rapids.

Absolutely amazing how obvious and simple so many solution really are - once one learn how to break problems down into parts, learn why each problem must be understood long before a solution is even considered, and perspective.  Surge protection (as described) has always been that simple even 100 years ago.  Most difficult part is getting someone to learn how to solve a problem by first learning how to think through it.  Then one routinely sees both an insurmountable problem and an adventure - just waiting to see how that problem will be (without doubt) solved.

The most expensive protection devices do little to nothing.  Protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorb.  That means a solution is never found in a magic box.  A protector is always and only as effective as its earth ground.  That is the '*of course*' moment.

Your power supplies should be all the protection you ever need. I would hope with that many rigs you are running quality PSUs and not some ATX garbage to power them. I have managed multi-megawatt facilities and surge protection was never even brought up as an issue even on unregulated power.

Westom, thanks so much for shedding light on what would seem like common sense. Yet, I was completely ignorant of this information.

I take it that you completely ignored that 580 joule numbers until challenged.  And ignored previously posted numbers.  Nothing is hostile.  You ignored facts and did not post numbers. That is (at minimum) deceptive.

580 joule number defines a "near zero joule protector".  How near zero?  If any smaller, it must be zero.  But its joules are just above zero.  So it is promoted as 100% protection? Why?  You ignored numbers.

Also ignored:  And Where is that PDU's low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground? No earth ground means no effective protection.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Again, where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed?

Nothing hostile.  An honest answer always says 'why' and with numbers.

Electronics will routinely convert a 600 joule surge into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors.  Protection (superior to what is inside a PDU) is already inside each appliance.  Concern is for a rare surge - maybe once every seven years - that can overwhelm superior and existing protection inside electronics.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  Then robust protection inside each appliance (refrigerator, dishwasher, dimmer switches, TVs, clocks, smoke detectors, etc) is not overwhelmed.  Then near zero joules in a PDU are protected.  This superior solution (always found in every facility that cannot have damage) costs about $1 per protected appliance.  But it is mostly unknown to many only educated by advertising and hearsay.

580 joules is near zero (ineffective) protection.  Tripplite and APC have more and still near zero joules.  Those companies also are not on a list of companies known for integrity - and effective protectors.  Worse, a PDU and those other protectors do not even have a low impedance (ie hardwire has no splices) connection to single point earth ground.  From over 100 years of well proven science and experience (another number): a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

wow the forum has gotten quite hostile, it was just a suggestion

I take it you did not read the specifications of the 240V PDU digital logger is offering which includes Surge Protection 580J 25,000A MOV. How is that not exactly what he needs. Yes it is a smaller company, with meh documentation. You could find a similar thing from one of the bigger server like Tripp-Lite or APC with less features.

OP asked for "Power Surge protector or a proper system to protect my rigs on 240v."  That digital logger PDU does not claim any such protection.  

If it did, a post would have defined that protection and why it works - with numbers.  That recommendation was made without any reasons to believe it.  And no numbers.  A perfect example of how to suspect it is a bogus or scam recommendation.

It does not even claim to  do what the OP requested?  So why was it recommended?  A question that asks for the missing and required whats and whys.

Not sure why no one gave you a good answer.

These digital logger PDUs seem to fit what you need - https://www.digital-loggers.com/220.html .

For my ASICs, I ended up finding a good deal on new Eaton UPS's on ebay. 400$ for Eaton 9130s, 1800W.

SPDs do not prevent fires.  SPDs can create fires.  Power strip protectors are especially dangerous.  If one is found in luggage on a cruise ship, it may be confiscated.  Ships do more to protect from fire - such as confiscate those near zero joule power strip protectors.

Article says, "install them per Art. 285."  That does not make a protector effective - do appliance protection.  That only addresses a human safety issues - do human protection.

An effective protector must make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground.  Citation does state wires must not have sharp bends.  But does not say why.  It is written for electricians - who typically do not know how electricity works.  Who are mostly taught what must connect to what for human safety.

Article does not say why a protector must connect to earth ground (not safety ground).  Plug-in protectors are ineffective (for so many reasons) because safety ground has numerous sharp bends - has excessive impedance.  'Whole house' protector is effective when it makes a low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) connection to single point earth ground.  All four words have electrical significance - not defined by the article.

Article does not discuss what or why is critical.  It mentions no sharp wire bends and wires as short as possible (ie less than 10 feet to earth).   Article notes things an electrician must know.  For example, it accurately says 'Type' does not define an effective protector.  Type (1, 2, 3) addresses human safety issues.  Article does not discuss other critical considerations (ie single point earth ground).  It is written for installers - ie electricians.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Article does not mention that.  Single point earth ground is critical for effective protection. That earth ground (not a protector) should have most of your attention.  Only better electricians would know that.

If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.  Just another reason why a 'whole house' solution is the only proven solution.  Electricians (and every homeowner) should know that.  Many do not.