[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 324.

chanc3r

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Quote from: Nacionalito on March 02, 2014, 04:04:38 PM

Quote from: gwinevere on March 02, 2014, 03:52:06 PM

Exactly. Proof of Importance is NEM's best feature. PoI is what will set NEM apart from all other coins.

I'm sorry if I missed it but is there a link somewhere to how PoI works? Is this actually a fully developed working thing, or just an idea at this point? How is "hybrid PoS/PoI" different from NXT proof of stake?

I've read about it in the development plan, there is a few lines of description that is all, it is unclear how it will work or what behaviour it will drive. I await a more formal specification and formal review of the algorithm, like all good ideas there are intended consequences and unintended consequences...

If implemented as described, it will 'set NEM apart' but whether this is in a good way or not will be how the implementation is judged when it is seen out in the community - there is a lot of stealing of ideas so I'm not surprised there is little detail posted in order to prevent this - we will have to trust in the 'devs' and see what they finally decide on.

gwinevere

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Quote from: Lucozade35 on March 02, 2014, 04:09:41 PM

Quote from: Nacionalito on March 02, 2014, 04:04:38 PM

Quote from: gwinevere on March 02, 2014, 03:52:06 PM

Exactly. Proof of Importance is NEM's best feature. PoI is what will set NEM apart from all other coins.

I'm sorry if I missed it but is there a link somewhere to how PoI works? Is this actually a fully developed working thing, or just an idea at this point? How is "hybrid PoS/PoI" different from NXT proof of stake?

I was confused about this as well. i do recall reading something about it, did you happen to read about it on this forum if so could you explain it in English to me please

It's in the NEM Development Plan.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NhxTyi4Eo2D_1m1Ca8zvzQr0_RB0dgM2VuWXAIzcS-I/edit?pli=1

Lucozade35

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Activity: 46

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Quote from: Nacionalito on March 02, 2014, 04:04:38 PM

Quote from: gwinevere on March 02, 2014, 03:52:06 PM

Exactly. Proof of Importance is NEM's best feature. PoI is what will set NEM apart from all other coins.

I'm sorry if I missed it but is there a link somewhere to how PoI works? Is this actually a fully developed working thing, or just an idea at this point? How is "hybrid PoS/PoI" different from NXT proof of stake?

I was confused about this as well. i do recall reading something about it, did you happen to read about it on this forum if so could you explain it in English to me please

Nacionalito

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Quote from: gwinevere on March 02, 2014, 03:52:06 PM

Exactly. Proof of Importance is NEM's best feature. PoI is what will set NEM apart from all other coins.

I'm sorry if I missed it but is there a link somewhere to how PoI works? Is this actually a fully developed working thing, or just an idea at this point? How is "hybrid PoS/PoI" different from NXT proof of stake?

gwinevere

newbie

Activity: 364

Merit: 0

Quote from: conbos on March 02, 2014, 03:00:06 PM

Quote from: chanc3r on March 02, 2014, 02:39:01 PM

Quote from: komije5363 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:08 PM

I think POS better than POW.

PoW is bad for the environment and as soon as you launch even if its asic resistant the botnets move in and rape mine until the difficulty rises so mere mortals with home computers and laptops lose out.

If you want to do something good for the world - copy what ripple has done which I think it quite smart - put part of NEM 10,20,25% I don't know up for World Computer Grid stuff over a period of time e.g. 6-12 months.

People download the computer grid stuff, join team NEM and let the research projects around the world use their PCs for research computations that benefit us all. We read the team stats (which they can't fake) off the computing grid team stats page and award NEM every 24hrs as a result.

Its much more in line with the sense I have of the 'New Economic Movement'. My desktop at home is earning ripple when I'm not using it, has been since december, probably makes 60 xrp a day - I'm not covering the electric costs probably or making huge money and for the Ripple alone I wouldn't do it but I like the idea of helping the research projects too i.e. doing something good with the spare PC capacity.

You could market it as well ....

And because there isn't a 'pure' profit you don't get the botnets and the other professional miners moving in with their high end kit.

It has been discussed elsewhere but it is important t to mention here again. PoW has a big problem when mining power is concentrated. With a 51% of mining power, you can really control the currency (you can authorize or not transactions); thus, you trasnform a descentralized system into a complete centralized one. Actually, the investment required to control 51% mining power of Bitcoin is about 5% of the current market capitalization of Bitcoin; which for a company or a government is quite cheap.
PoS solves that problem. To control the currency, you will need to buy 51% of the total amount of coins released for that currency; which is obviously very very difficult to obtain The problem of PoS is its unfair distribution and the bad incentive to exchange money. So, I/m very curious to read/known more details about NEM's implementation. If the Proof of Importance succeed, that will be a major hit of this coin

Exactly. Proof of Importance is NEM's best feature. PoI is what will set NEM apart from all other coins.

Schwarzalbert

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Quote from: chanc3r on March 02, 2014, 03:12:06 PM

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 03:03:19 PM

We are not talking about bitcoin like mining that is used to secure network for ever. We are talking about 2 month mining period that is used to distribute coins to mining community outside of stakeholders and people who read this forum. Mining period will end and Nem will be 100% POS like Nxt.

I know you are not talking about mining to secure the coin... I'm flatly against 'mining' as a complete waste of everyones time and I don't think it ensures more fairness/equality than what NEM leadership are currently doing because all miners are not equal..

NEM has a large number of stakeholders and not all of them will hold onto everything otherwise the coin will go nowhere so the stakeholders need to put NEM to work and that will increase its distribution.

I like the Computing for Good / World Computing Grid initiative and its an interesting alternative to a faucet, i.e. instead of begging for some coins to get you started you have to do something for good, if the community picks this idea up thats good, if not thats fine too.

Even my laptop donates 20% of its CPU now....

+1 !!

Doing something for good instead of begging is a great possibility to attract new members.
Nevertheless I don't think we should abstain completely from faucet.
Its a good and low cost way for publicity and we should use any kind of publicity.

chanc3r

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Activity: 952

Merit: 253

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 03:03:19 PM

We are not talking about bitcoin like mining that is used to secure network for ever. We are talking about 2 month mining period that is used to distribute coins to mining community outside of stakeholders and people who read this forum. Mining period will end and Nem will be 100% POS like Nxt.

I know you are not talking about mining to secure the coin... I'm flatly against 'mining' as a complete waste of everyones time and I don't think it ensures more fairness/equality than what NEM leadership are currently doing because all miners are not equal..

NEM has a large number of stakeholders and not all of them will hold onto everything otherwise the coin will go nowhere so the stakeholders need to put NEM to work and that will increase its distribution.

I like the Computing for Good / World Computing Grid initiative and its an interesting alternative to a faucet, i.e. instead of begging for some coins to get you started you have to do something for good, if the community picks this idea up thats good, if not thats fine too.

Even my laptop donates 20% of its CPU now....

utopianfuture

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Activity: 602

Merit: 268

Internet of Value

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 03:06:28 PM

Quote from: utopianfuture on March 02, 2014, 03:03:15 PM

You seem to be the next person following Mr. 2Kool2skew trying to sabotage NEM fundraising with this kind of 80% socket bullshit. It is well established that there are at least 1500 unique accounts in NEM stakeholder list.

I have never seen 1500 unique users number before, but if that is true, good.

I am not trying to "sabotage" Nem.

For god's sake stop being so sensitive and thin skinned. I was posting some suggestions.

Fine. I will stop posting to this thread from now.

See you at launch as I am stakeholder

Bye

Suggestions are good but that is different from pushing for an agenda. You have to check the fact before you are saying something like 80% sockpuppet which obviously associates with an agenda otherwise you are just so stupid for saying so without checking. Don't make up the number on the go to support your argument. Any NEM supporter knows about the published NEM stakeholder population statistics which makes your claim ridiculous.

utopianfuture

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Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 03:00:31 PM

Quote from: utopianfuture on March 02, 2014, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

One think "eXocoin" (scam or not) is correct is that mining is essential for fair and wider distribution.

I know Nem like Nxt is designed to have have no miners, but short term one to four month mining (that has nothing to do with Nem protocol itself) could have been used for wider and more fair distribution.

Basically, lets say 50% are distributed to stakeholders and the rest are mined (like short 2 month mining period).

That would result in much wider and fairer distribution.

You should understand that "fairness" belonging to moralistic category and in all likelihood the statement "what is fair to one person" is entirely subjective and depends on how much can he gain from that particular "what" compared to other people. Wide distribution is easy to understand and can be objective but "fair distribution" is not.

If you don't like the word "fair" replace it with "success". Wider distribution means more successful coin.

50% coins for stakeholders and 50% earned by miners will result in much wider distribution

IT is not about my preference in using words but about you don't understand what "fair" means. We do have some plan for wide scale distributions (stay tuned as they would be quite unique) but that does not involve giving away NEM cheaply to miners.

Eadeqa

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Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: utopianfuture on March 02, 2014, 03:03:15 PM

You seem to be the next person following Mr. 2Kool2skew trying to sabotage NEM fundraising with this kind of 80% socket bullshit. It is well established that there are at least 1500 unique accounts in NEM stakeholder list.

I have never seen 1500 unique users number before, but if that is true, good.

I am not trying to "sabotage" Nem.

For god's sake stop being so sensitive and thin skinned. I was posting some suggestions.

Fine. I will stop posting to this thread from now.

See you at launch as I am stakeholder

Bye

utopianfuture

sr. member

Activity: 602

Merit: 268

Internet of Value

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 03:00:31 PM

Quote from: utopianfuture on March 02, 2014, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

One think "eXocoin" (scam or not) is correct is that mining is essential for fair and wider distribution.

I know Nem like Nxt is designed to have have no miners, but short term one to four month mining (that has nothing to do with Nem protocol itself) could have been used for wider and more fair distribution.

Basically, lets say 50% are distributed to stakeholders and the rest are mined (like short 2 month mining period).

That would result in much wider and fairer distribution.

You should understand that "fairness" belonging to moralistic category and in all likelihood the statement "what is fair to one person" is entirely subjective and depends on how much can he gain from that particular "what" compared to other people. Wide distribution is easy to understand and can be objective but "fair distribution" is not.

If you don't like the word "fair" replace it with "success". Wider distribution means more successful coin.

50% coins for stakeholders and 50% earned by miners will result in much wider distribution

You should make your own coin. This coin probably does not suit you and you are entitled for a refund.

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: conbos on March 02, 2014, 03:00:06 PM

Quote from: chanc3r on March 02, 2014, 02:39:01 PM

Quote from: komije5363 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:08 PM

I think POS better than POW.

PoW is bad for the environment and as soon as you launch even if its asic resistant the botnets move in and rape mine until the difficulty rises so mere mortals with home computers and laptops lose out.

If you want to do something good for the world - copy what ripple has done which I think it quite smart - put part of NEM 10,20,25% I don't know up for World Computer Grid stuff over a period of time e.g. 6-12 months.

People download the computer grid stuff, join team NEM and let the research projects around the world use their PCs for research computations that benefit us all. We read the team stats (which they can't fake) off the computing grid team stats page and award NEM every 24hrs as a result.

Its much more in line with the sense I have of the 'New Economic Movement'. My desktop at home is earning ripple when I'm not using it, has been since december, probably makes 60 xrp a day - I'm not covering the electric costs probably or making huge money and for the Ripple alone I wouldn't do it but I like the idea of helping the research projects too i.e. doing something good with the spare PC capacity.

You could market it as well ....

And because there isn't a 'pure' profit you don't get the botnets and the other professional miners moving in with their high end kit.

It has been discussed elsewhere but it is important t to mention here again. PoW has a big problem when mining power is concentrated.

We are not talking about bitcoin like mining that is used to secure network for ever. We are talking about 2 month mining period that is used to distribute coins to mining community outside of stakeholders and people who read this forum. Mining period will end and Nem will be 100% POS like Nxt.

utopianfuture

sr. member

Activity: 602

Merit: 268

Internet of Value

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:58:24 PM

Quote from: komije5363 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:08 PM

I think POS better than POW.

It's not about POS vs POW. Nem can still be 100% POW. The mining mechanism can be used to distribute 50% of Nem. Mining mechanism can be anything and could have no relation to Nem internal POS protocol. The purpose would be to distribution Nem -- much wider distribution and attract new audience (the mining community).

Everyone will benefit for wider distribution. 100% of coins controlled by 3000 accounts (80% of the sockets) will do more damage than good.

Make it 50% to stakeholders
and distribute 50% by some kind of mining competition

You seem to be the next person following Mr. 2Kool2skew trying to sabotage NEM fundraising with this kind of 80% socket bullshit. It is well established that there are at least 1500 unique accounts in the NEM stakeholder list.

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: utopianfuture on March 02, 2014, 02:58:13 PM

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

One think "eXocoin" (scam or not) is correct is that mining is essential for fair and wider distribution.

I know Nem like Nxt is designed to have have no miners, but short term one to four month mining (that has nothing to do with Nem protocol itself) could have been used for wider and more fair distribution.

Basically, lets say 50% are distributed to stakeholders and the rest are mined (like short 2 month mining period).

That would result in much wider and fairer distribution.

You should understand that "fairness" belonging to moralistic category and in all likelihood the statement "what is fair to one person" is entirely subjective and depends on how much can he gain from that particular "what" compared to other people. Wide distribution is easy to understand and can be objective but "fair distribution" is not.

If you don't like the word "fair" replace it with "success". Wider distribution means more successful coin.

50% coins for stakeholders and 50% earned by miners will result in much wider distribution

conbos

member

Activity: 94

Merit: 10

Quote from: chanc3r on March 02, 2014, 02:39:01 PM

Quote from: komije5363 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:08 PM

I think POS better than POW.

PoW is bad for the environment and as soon as you launch even if its asic resistant the botnets move in and rape mine until the difficulty rises so mere mortals with home computers and laptops lose out.

If you want to do something good for the world - copy what ripple has done which I think it quite smart - put part of NEM 10,20,25% I don't know up for World Computer Grid stuff over a period of time e.g. 6-12 months.

People download the computer grid stuff, join team NEM and let the research projects around the world use their PCs for research computations that benefit us all. We read the team stats (which they can't fake) off the computing grid team stats page and award NEM every 24hrs as a result.

Its much more in line with the sense I have of the 'New Economic Movement'. My desktop at home is earning ripple when I'm not using it, has been since december, probably makes 60 xrp a day - I'm not covering the electric costs probably or making huge money and for the Ripple alone I wouldn't do it but I like the idea of helping the research projects too i.e. doing something good with the spare PC capacity.

You could market it as well ....

And because there isn't a 'pure' profit you don't get the botnets and the other professional miners moving in with their high end kit.

It has been discussed elsewhere but it is important t to mention here again. PoW has a big problem when mining power is concentrated. With a 51% of mining power, you can really control the currency (you can authorize or not transactions); thus, you trasnform a descentralized system into a complete centralized one. Actually, the investment required to control 51% mining power of Bitcoin is about 5% of the current market capitalization of Bitcoin; which for a company or a government is quite cheap.
PoS solves that problem. To control the currency, you will need to buy 51% of the total amount of coins released for that currency; which is obviously very very difficult to obtain The problem of PoS is its unfair distribution and the bad incentive to exchange money. So, I/m very curious to read/known more details about NEM's implementation. If the Proof of Importance succeed, that will be a major hit of this coin

dissident

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

there's already hundreds of altcoins out there that are 'mined' .. that's the last thing we really need is another mined coin for someone with a large ASIC rig or CPU farm to make more money on. The original promise to investors was no mining, even distribution by account stake.

Want to reward people for setting up nodes, creating ways to exchange the coin, or other unique features, I have no problem with that? Mining, already been done hundreds of times elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with giving the coins to the account stakeholders, as promised.

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: komije5363 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:08 PM

I think POS better than POW.

It's not about POS vs POW. Nem can still be 100% POW. The mining mechanism can be used to distribute 50% of Nem. Mining mechanism can be anything and could have no relation to Nem internal POS protocol. The purpose would be to distribution Nem -- much wider distribution and attract new audience (the mining community).

Everyone will benefit for wider distribution. 100% of coins controlled by 3000 accounts (80% of the sockets) will do more damage than good.

Make it 50% to stakeholders
and distribute 50% by some kind of mining competition

utopianfuture

sr. member

Activity: 602

Merit: 268

Internet of Value

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

One think "eXocoin" (scam or not) is correct is that mining is essential for fair and wider distribution.

I know Nem like Nxt is designed to have have no miners, but short term one to four month mining (that has nothing to do with Nem protocol itself) could have been used for wider and more fair distribution.

Basically, lets say 50% are distributed to stakeholders and the rest are mined (like short 2 month mining period).

That would result in much wider and fairer distribution.

You should understand that "fairness" belonging to moralistic category and in all likelihood the statement "what is fair to one person" is entirely subjective and depends on how much can he gain from that particular "what" compared to other people. Wide distribution is easy to understand and can be objective but "fair distribution" is not.

NEM fundraising is only intended to be fair and egalitarian to NEM community and supporters. I couldn't care less about people who doesn't support NEM as well as miners whose sole purpose is to mine and sell as fast as he can. There may be a part of NEM devoted for mining activities as giveaways when we figure out the technicality after launch though.

SIjong

newbie

Activity: 39

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I find that beer drinking is much more important than the PoS

patmast3r

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:53:01 PM

Quote from: Starsheriff2.0 on March 02, 2014, 02:23:55 PM

Quote from: Eadeqa on March 02, 2014, 02:15:33 PM

One think "eXocoin" (scam or not) is correct is that mining is essential for fair and wider distribution.

I know Nem like Nxt is designed to have have no miners, but short term one to four month mining (that has nothing to do with Nem protocol itself) could have been used for wider and more fair distribution.

Basically, lets say 50% are distributed to stakeholders and the rest are mined (like short 2 month mining period).

That would result in much wider and fairer distribution.

I don't think so.
In my case ( just as an example) mining would be impossible. My notebook is as old as a granny and I like the idea of forging without having big high-end hardware.
Furthermore NEM is purely POS/POI not POW. Wink

That's fine for you, as you already bought shares, but mining is essential for wider distribution.

I think it's time now to seriously consider 2 month mining period for 50% of coins distribution. That will attract much different audience and result in much wider distribution.

Not only impossible at this stage but also not what anyone wanted.

Topic: [NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 324. (Read 661499 times)