Topic: Neutral feedback of negative spirit (Read 452 times)

Well, I think:
The account receiving the neutral Trust should be lucky, that it's not a negative Trust.  

Why?

At first we should get an understanding about Trust:

A positive (green) Trust is adding a +1 to your trust score.
A neutral (black) Trust is adding a =1 to your trust score.
A negative (red) Trust is adding a -1 to your trust score.

It's mostly about the score to be considered a Trust abuse but neutral Trust is = (no change).

If someone adds a positive feedback, which is not enough to be a positive feedback, it might be considered Trust abuse.
If someone adds a negative feedback, which is not enough to be a negative feedback, it might be considered Trust abuse.
A neutral feedback can hardly be a Trust abuse, because neutral Trust is mainly considered as other people's opinions about the account in question.
The only possibility, where a neutral Trust is a Trust abuse is if the provided comment is an outright lie and the accused account can prove that it's an outright lie.
=> you can write everything as a neutral feedback as long as it's not an outright lie (reference link could be useful).

Neutral Trust was also described as a very undervalued tool for de-escalation:



So, if your feedback might be not enough to be negative, maybe a neutral trust is better. You should consider it.
Neutral trust should cover a very wide range from "very nice guy" feedbacks to "extremely disgusting troll". At least most cases, where no real money is involved.
Yes, in some cases, trolls can also receive a negative Trust and nice guys can also receive a postitve Trust but you need a very good reason for it. Trust is mainly about being trustworthy proven by risked amount of money.
Once, there has been a separate entry of how much BTC was at risk. It got removed and that's a little bit sad.
Especially, I've seen way too many "nice guy" feedbacks recently. Being a nice guy is clearly a neutral trust because no money is involved and "nice guy" feedbacks are inflating Trust scores and if everyone starts giving out "nice guy" feedbacks, we are at a high risk, that at least some of these "nice guys" turn out to be scammers.


tl;dr
The comment of the neutral Trust doesn't make it a negative Trust, it's still a neutral Trust, no mater what's written in the comment.
You can call someone a disgusting liar, a troll or whatever, it's still a neutral Trust.
A neutral Trust, no matter what's written in it, is much, much less offensive than a negative Trust. Neutral Trust is a very good approach of de-escalation.

Another advantage of "free speech" I'm not sure if the words behind the neutral tag really matter; I have a neutral tag with positive feedback behind it, but it makes no difference. If you're going to have positive feedback behind a neutral tag, it's pointless; if positive feedback doesn't come with the green tag, then hold your breath.

Disagree.  Sounds too much like "thought police" to me.  Leave your own feedback to express your own views about a user if you disagree with anyone else's.  Don't go preaching to other people about how they should write theirs.

Actually your most recent neutral rating is a good example of a well-deserved neutral rating. You tend to shitpost in random threads about your victimhood but you're too chickenshit to raise those disputes properly. You got called out on it. The person didn't think it was a "high risk" (lying is typically not a sufficient reason for red trust) but something worth noting/rebuking. Factual rating with a correct archived reference. Good use of the trust system.

My opinion is that you need to be bold when leaving feedback.  There's even a sticky in Reputation if I'm not mistaken that says as much, i.e., if you're leaving negative feedback, make sure to make it negative (red).  Because even if you write a scathing feedback with enough details such that anyone reading it would be left with no confusion about the member's trustworthiness, but you make it a neutral instead of a negative, it's never going to carry any weight.  It probably won't even be seen....ever, unless the member happens to look at his trust page and notices it.

You might get a retaliatory negative, but that's the price most DT members have paid who've busted scammers and other undesirables.  And a retaliatory feedback means diddly squat in the grand scheme of things, because it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that they're without merit, and IMO they should be worn as a badge of honor.

No doubt there's a place for neutral trust, but everything I just wrote applies to feedback that really ought to be negative and doesn't fit into one of the scenarios you mentioned.

Not every neutral tag is a case of uncertainty; there are cases where neutral is appropriate, and going beyond neutral may be considered an abuse; for example, neutral is best used to indicate an alt accounts belonging to one person; it is best used for selfcnote too.

No one with good reputation would decline to use escrow when dealing with a random user for the first time; if this is the case, that person is likely to scam, and red tag is best used in this case because neutral would have no positive impact on his reputation.

Being on DT means standing up for what you believe is right, even if the rest of the world is against you; this is why it is decentralized. In the past, we've seen several negative tag appeals supported by local communities in an attempt to overwrite it..

I'll assume you aren't being sarcastic (if you are I apologize for being dense). 

If I cared more, I'd get 20 alts in the DT network just to show how easily this shit is being manipulated.  Honestly though, I have better things to do with my time and as mentioned, I don't care enough anymore as that's the attitude that has trickled down from the top.  Maybe someone with more free time and an axe to grind will go get 20 usernames into DT and expose the plot to show just how ridiculous the system has become.  I imagine it might cost a few hundred dollars and take a couple months, but I've been watching it happen for years by people who I'm amazed can figure out how to turn on a computer or feed themselves so it isn't like it's some hard thing to accomplish. 

When I was involved with another site and had access to private data, I was amazed at how many usernames used here are controlled by the same few individuals.  That's why when a well known troll here disappears, you can find half a dozen or so members who all had the same opinions suddenly stop posting as well.  Don't underestimate the crazy here.  Trust me.  If you think this place is decentralized or that anyone even gives a shit about the end result of the trust network being accurate, don't look behind the curtain.

Most of the neutral negative feedbacks I have seen are based on two things:

1. The person who left the feedback is not sure, maybe based on the body language of the accused. For instance, a newbie may open a thread to sell goods and refuse to use escrow. Since the newbie is not an established member and has not been trusted before, a DT member can decide to leave a neutral negative tag since he is not sure if the accused will scam or not.
2. Tagging someone for sure what you are convinced deserves a negative tag but the rest of the community may not agree with you. For instance, a user committed plagiarism and was smart to have deleted the Res before the moderators could know, thereby escaping ban. I have seen a DT member going on to leave a neutral tag for this kind of scenario.

To me, I feel that neutral tag as the name implies is a safe haven to a DT who fears to abuse the trust system. This can be seen when a negative tag is given someone at the heat of argument or anger, but after sometime, when the DT member has undergone a critical rethink he/she may decide to turn it to a neutral tag.

It depends case by case, when someone commited scam then DT members can likely tag them with negative tag but when DT member suspect a user can possibly scam for some reasons they can tag them with neutral and also its their own decision to tag them as neutral or red or green, if someone don't agree with their feedback then they are free to remove them from their trust list. Abusing the trust system is different its more likely leaving a tag for personal vengeance without proof or leaving green for their own benefits, etc.

If there's a Reference link that proves "this person has repeatedly demonstrated that he is not trustworthy", it's not Trust abuse. The rest is a personal opinion, and when posting feedback the forum literally shows your opinion is a good reason to leave negative feedback:
If others disagree with your opinion, it's up to them to exclude you from their Trust list.

I disagree. You can't accuse someone of something they didn't do. Making it neutral means it doesn't have the impact of negative on the profile. Many users use neutral instead of positive too, even though the description is positive, when they don't want to increase someone's Trust score with it.

Hey OG, come on! The trust system is more decentralized than ever. There are 92 members in DT1 and 606 in DT2, it is laughable that you say that.


In this I agree that this is one thing that catches my attention. You have been in this much longer than me, I understand that, at least in its origins, the people who were in it were of libertarian tendency, so I am very struck by the number of socialists I see in the forum (call them left-wingers, or otherwise if you prefer) and I opened a thread about it back in the day.

Some idiot who has been trolling me for years recently left me some bullshit neutral feedback. It’s how the trust system is designed. Enough con artists got together to get control of DT and now they cast out anyone that doesn’t turn a blind eye to their abuse. It’s sad because this forum was once upheld with Libertarian beliefs, but laziness has given way to an attitude of telling people to call the cops on other forum users in order to avoid handling responsibilities of running a community. It’s sad, because some of us have been here in time now measured in decades doing work on behalf of Bitcoin but are stuck being extorted and harassed anytime someone covets something we’ve built, whether that be reputation, businesses, or just a positive working environment. Nothing will be done until the money laundering signature campaigns are removed and the scammers no longer have a financial incentive to be here and continue exploiting the system.

Since nobody seems to read anyway does it matter?
Bit of snark, but it seems to me more and more people are looking at the + number and the - number and making a decision. Not at all reading why they are there or who they are from.

We see the same scams over and over and people sending BTC top red tagged people over and over. So does it really matter what the neutral trust says.

-Dave

Look at it this way.

If I am on DT and I left you a neutral showering you with positive praises of how much of a wonderful person you are. How I trust you 100%?
Would it be considered abuse of trust? 

Exactly, if the neutral comment had some negative words in it. It doesn't weigh that much like a direct negative feedback. It's more like a note to self or a simple reminder to other users about a certain character.

It's also why a ref link should be included. So that different members can make judgement for themselves.

Red trust implies "high risk". Perhaps the person who posted neutral feedback thought there is a risk, but it's not high, maybe "medium" or "slightly elevated".

Neutral is neutral. Of course you can form your opinion about someone based on trust ratings (including neutrals) they leave for others. But for a neutral rating to be considered "abuse", I think it would need to be something exceptional, not merely "I don't trust this person". Perhaps if someone spams death threats via neutral ratings, that sort of thing, but usually such idiots just use red trust anyway.

It is important to remember that everyone has the right to their own opinion, even when giving feedback. This is an open platform.
I agree that negative feedback requires references and solid evidence, though.