Never make a ROI | Bitcointalksearch.org

Harley997

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Quote from: nwfella on June 14, 2014, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: Cranky4u on June 11, 2014, 12:44:00 AM

ROI depends on how big you see your system. If it is limited to a crypto hardware and supporting CPU then your system input constraints (such as elec prices) will smash your ROI into the floor. On the other hand, expand your vision to include the energy source and derive a method to control it, such as adding a solar panel / wind turbine to power your hardware, then your system might take longer to break even but the ROI is ongoing.

Yes the ROI is diminishing however it does allow you to continue using older generation miners and updating them through profits.

This is the approach I have used and although I am not packing a 10THs facility, I do own my 1.5kW solar array plus the Jally plus the R-box plus the 3 * 6770s plus the 2 * AMD 6 cores that were ALL paid for out of an initail $500 investment.

Yes, this is less profit than having bought just BTC however I am more comfortable working with and understanding hardware/ software than I am with world economics...

P.S the 1.5kW array is more than enough to power sufficient ASICs to make it worth my while as each gen improves more hash for less watts. As the current 3rd gen stabilises, I will grab a few more to my collection.

Overall, work out a business plan that works for you and stick to it!

This fella makes alotta sense. I've been wanting to find somebody with a huge solar farm for sometime now. Kudos to you sir (even though I hate you kind of...not really;)

Many states force utilities to purchase excess solar power from consumers at retail prices.

Even if the electric did not "cost" anything they would still miss out on selling that electricity to the utility company

ShakyhandsBTCer

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Quote from: Nitroyoda on June 14, 2014, 06:19:55 PM

So Lets say I had enough capital to buy 20 TH/s worth of machinery and could run it at $ 0.03 kw/h............could this not make money ?

The answer to your question ultimately depends on two things:

One - how fast the difficulty increases. This will determine how much your machines will mine in the future as well as the future value of your miners.

Two - the price that you pay for the machines. This will help determine when/if you will ever reach ROI.

I assume that you would purchase 28nm machines. You generally "have" to assume that the price of bitcoin will remain flat when calculating ROI as if you think it will increase then you would be better off simply buying bitcoin.

IMO the best way to profit off of miners is to buy miners at the market price (or slightly below if possible) then resell it right away to someone else quickly, before the miner looses any value. You could then keep what it mines as profit.

Miners will lose value as the difficulty increases as they will produce less bitcoin

brian_23452

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Quote from: Nitroyoda on June 14, 2014, 06:19:55 PM

So Lets say I had enough capital to buy 20 TH/s worth of machinery and could run it at $ 0.03 kw/h............could this not make money ?

Possibly, obviously how much they cost and how much electricity they consume would be the main factors. The thing is though, it's easy to make money on paper using cheap accounting tricks, without actually making any money. Large part of the reason why costs are so high. For instance someone mentions solar panels to cut down on the costs of electricity. Okay, but solar panels don't come free, if you spend 20k USD on solar panels, are you including that cost in your operational costs or just ignoring it? Even with solar panels, electricity that you are consuming is still worth money. If you consume 1000 USD a month in electricity that you could have otherwise sold to the power company, is that missed revenue being accounted for as a cost as it should be, or just ignored? And of course there are the people with "free" electricity. Unless you are stealing it though, you are paying for it. It may be included in the rent so you don't know how much your paying for it, but it's still there. These are just a few examples of costs that are sometimes ignored but are nevertheless still there.

Nitroyoda

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So Lets say I had enough capital to buy 20 TH/s worth of machinery and could run it at $ 0.03 kw/h............could this not make money ?

nwfella

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Well hello there!

Quote from: Cranky4u on June 11, 2014, 12:44:00 AM

ROI depends on how big you see your system. If it is limited to a crypto hardware and supporting CPU then your system input constraints (such as elec prices) will smash your ROI into the floor. On the other hand, expand your vision to include the energy source and derive a method to control it, such as adding a solar panel / wind turbine to power your hardware, then your system might take longer to break even but the ROI is ongoing.

Yes the ROI is diminishing however it does allow you to continue using older generation miners and updating them through profits.

This is the approach I have used and although I am not packing a 10THs facility, I do own my 1.5kW solar array plus the Jally plus the R-box plus the 3 * 6770s plus the 2 * AMD 6 cores that were ALL paid for out of an initail $500 investment.

Yes, this is less profit than having bought just BTC however I am more comfortable working with and understanding hardware/ software than I am with world economics...

P.S the 1.5kW array is more than enough to power sufficient ASICs to make it worth my while as each gen improves more hash for less watts. As the current 3rd gen stabilises, I will grab a few more to my collection.

Overall, work out a business plan that works for you and stick to it!

This fella makes alotta sense. I've been wanting to find somebody with a huge solar farm for sometime now. Kudos to you sir (even though I hate you kind of...not really;)

ajareselde

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

mining has become over-staturated, thats why the profits are marginal/none.
Try to make a profit trading, instead of mining, if u have a steady hand and nerves

Most of miners usualy start selling equipement as soon as they recieve it, and that way they make better profit, so consider that also.

ChuckBuck

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better everyday ♥

Quote from: XScrypt on June 14, 2014, 10:05:52 AM

Quote from: ChuckBuck on June 12, 2014, 11:32:34 AM

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you? Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment. He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

You didn't make $500. If you sold right now you'd make about half that due to the drop in price since February. You don't make a profit or a loss until you sell. Until then, it's imaginary.

It's not imaginary. I've made over 0.81 BTC with the single Antminer S1 I'm still running. Put in February 12 to June 14 and 200 GH/s:

http://retrocalc.net/

Forget the fiat for a second, I've made 0.81 profit from my 1.45BTC invest. So 0.81 is pure up coins. So 0.81 x current exchange rate = $456 or so since BTC price dipped a little.

I always use coins to buy miners, so don't factor the exchange price then and now. Coins in, coins out.

Hope that makes sense to you now.

Chuck

XScrypt

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Quote from: ChuckBuck on June 12, 2014, 11:32:34 AM

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you? Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment. He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

You didn't make $500. If you sold right now you'd make about half that due to the drop in price since February. You don't make a profit or a loss until you sell. Until then, it's imaginary.

snowcrawl

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Maybe if the money you were investing was obtained from illegal business activities. Chalk up the not making ROI to the cost of the money laundering operation.

ShakyhandsBTCer

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It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin

You will probably be better off simply buying bitcoin as the difficulty will likely rise much faster then the price of bitcoin.

With that being said you can potentially get ROI if you pay a cheap enough price, it is just that there are very few (or no) people selling at low enough prices for buying a miner to make sense.

ChuckBuck

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better everyday ♥

Quote from: zvs on June 12, 2014, 11:44:08 AM

Quote from: ChuckBuck on June 12, 2014, 11:32:34 AM

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you? Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment. He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

I don't know if those numbers are correct, it's saying 200ghash would make .05 bitcoins a day in mid-february. doesn't seem correct to me.

but sure doesn't hold a candle to buying a radeon 5830 for $100 from newegg in 2011 and paying it off in like 2 1/2 days

Yea, I'm late to the game(started late 2013) but I can assure you I was making around 0.04-0.05 Bitcoins in mid-February since difficulty was at 2.6 Billion

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

I wish I had mined in the GPU era, but oh well that boat has sailed.

You can be sure that the retrocalculator is pretty spot on as it pulls it's database from http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash

Even with 1% variance due to pool luck or any outages, you can see I've made out with that single Ant.

Much much harder nowadays obviously with each difficulty increase, but not impossible as most would have you believe. You have to pounce on the right hardware at the right price point. If you aren't close to mining ROI, best to sell it right away for BTC to recoup losses and turn the sale into net profit. Also, it doesn't hurt to have cheap or free electric!

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

Quote from: ChuckBuck on June 12, 2014, 11:32:34 AM

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you? Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment. He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

I don't know if those numbers are correct, it's saying 200ghash would make .05 bitcoins a day in mid-february. doesn't seem correct to me.

but sure doesn't hold a candle to buying a radeon 5830 for $100 from newegg in 2011 and paying it off in like 2 1/2 days

ChuckBuck

hero member

Activity: 1372

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better everyday ♥

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you? Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment. He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

zvs

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https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com

Quote from: ChuckBuck on June 12, 2014, 08:38:55 AM

Quote from: DrG on June 12, 2014, 01:09:59 AM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 08:54:14 PM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.

May I ask which machines you purchased. The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries. All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts. Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Not true, every January through early March Antminer S1 owner has ROI'ed:

http://retrocalc.net/

No clue what an Antminer is, since checking information on ASICs hasn't been worth the time since Avalon batch 2, but even if it does show some greater # of bitcoins, when were these Antminers paid for?

Not before mid-November hopefully?

lol.

snowcrawl

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Also worth considering that just barely making ROI is still not worth bragging about, or something to equate to being a good investment, contrary to the misleading salespitch used by sellers of mining hardware or cloudmining contracts that have been making them a handsome profit. You could have alternatively put the money in a GIC, and rename that GIC "the alternative to bitcoin mining GIC", where the maturity date would coincide roughly with when you would have reached ROI had you instead been mining bitcoins. Wink

ChuckBuck

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better everyday ♥

Quote from: DrG on June 12, 2014, 01:09:59 AM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 08:54:14 PM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.

May I ask which machines you purchased. The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries. All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts. Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Not true, every January through early March Antminer S1 owner has ROI'ed:

http://retrocalc.net/

thresher

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Quote from: DrG on June 12, 2014, 01:09:59 AM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 08:54:14 PM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.

May I ask which machines you purchased. The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries. All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts. Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Antminer s1s, purchased 2 new when they had the fixed price that wasn't changing late feb and 2 mid march (coupons on these). I know exactly what they have made, as they have only been on egluis pool, with brief periods on their backup pools (unlike gpus which have been at every coin imaginable.) They were all overclocked at slightly over 200ghs.
I started with gpus, and believed all the nonsense spread by everyone about how bitcoin asics suck, you never see roi, and my gpus can be sold for 75 percent purchase price.......lmao, how did I believe that shit.

cr4sh0verride

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Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

Yes this is what most people get confused with but keep in mind that's all we have to use now

You can buy a miner with Fiat or Bitcoin but when you're paying with Fiat and getting returns in Bitcoin that obviously muddies the waters as the price fluctuates

The calculations are not hard to do by yourself instead of relying on all these websites to do it for you and it comes to one very clear conclusion

There is very little on the market at this point that you will get a ROI whether its BTC or Fiat (keep in mind that you calculate how many BTC's you can buy right now for that amount) with a modest increase in difficulty 10-15% over a 6 month period

Lets not forget you may want to sell during a bubble that might be occurring during that period whereby it's much easier to liquidate the coins you already have

DrG

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Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 08:54:14 PM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.

May I ask which machines you purchased. The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries. All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts. Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

thresher

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Quote from: Bitsaurus on June 11, 2014, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: thresher on June 11, 2014, 06:20:45 AM

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.

You must be talking fiat ROI. Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC. I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.

Topic: Never make a ROI (Read 2947 times)