New breakthrough in science hints at Intelligent Design - page 3.

ktttn

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Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 10:03:58 AM

Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?

The article also mentions that space-time along with quantum mechanics are emergent from the geometry, so make what you want out of it.

Quote from: bythesea on September 23, 2013, 08:54:46 AM

How can a music be a prof of intelligent designer? Everything in the world and universe has its own frequency, giving music as a prof of a God is just stupid.

When Edgar Cayce was asked in his usual trance-channeling state "What is the Universe?". His short and only answer was: "Music of the Spheres".

Quote from: pedrog on September 20, 2013, 05:23:25 PM

So, earth is 6000 years old?

Quote from: dancupid on September 21, 2013, 03:17:28 PM

Will we need to worship this designer in some way (sing songs, sacrifice goats etc), or can we just ignore the fact and get on with our lives as normal?

Ok apparently it was my (failed) attempt at trolling. I got bored and decided to see what happens if I post this.

No need to sing songs or worship anyone, just relax and proceed as normal, I will be careful next time.

Quote from: herzmeister on September 23, 2013, 07:28:56 AM

Well, if we're living in a computer simulation, then obviously there is a designer/programmer of the "Matrix computer code".

What you may question is if we live within simulations within simulations within simulations, then it may only be the very first world that would have happened by evolution alone. All simulated worlds run largely on evolution but may have variable amounts of code.

It does look more and more like simulation to me. Maybe there is a reason we all love playing computer games - we are in one! Thanks for the links I'll have a look!

If math itself were an intellectual construction it would fall apart at the seams. It begs the question.
Psychic Channelling and science aren't friends.

interlagos

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Quote from: Wilikon on September 23, 2013, 05:49:58 PM

My personal view is if this forum is as libertarian as it is supposed to be you should never feel the need to apologies to the people in advance, people who do not share your views. They will mock you anyway. So have fun and share away.

Agreed. Mocking is fun!

Quote from: Spendulus on September 23, 2013, 10:42:08 PM

...
But that is nonsense. It is not that the circle is the result of intelligence, but that it requires intelligence, consciousness, etc to discuss it as an abstraction.
...

This is a very good point. The next step would be to ask whether the "circle" exists without intelligence/consciousness discussing it as an abstraction or is it created by the mere fact of some consciousness describing it. Or the other way to put it: "Do mathematical structures give rise to consciousness or does consciousness give rise to mathematical structures?" From my empirical experience my consciousness is the root to everything else I get to think about, there is no outside to it.

In the end it all boils down to definitions in our language. What is "intelligence"? What is "abstraction"? What is "proof"? What is "what" and who is asking?

Quote from: Spendulus on September 24, 2013, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 05:32:11 PM

.....

In my view, God is not separate from its Creation (and is definitely not a bearded elder on a cloud).....

Prove it.

Because God is "a bearded elder in a cloud (read datacenter)":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wdKlWXyUkc
see the difference?

Quote from: Fuserleer on September 24, 2013, 09:31:07 PM

If you draw a perfect circle, then measure its diameter, measure its circumference, divide circumference by diameter, you get PI, always.

There's no intelligent design there, it just IS, it's fact, it's math, a circle is defined as an 2d object where the diameter is the same measured from any edge to another passing through the center, no intelligence, no magic, just math.

Just as 1+1 = 2, no intelligence, it just is.

If these facts are true, and there are other facts that ring true regardless of circumstance, then you have solid building blocks for a complex system without design.

That's the problem. You see, the circle needs me to do all these manipulations to construct it. And from the looks of it I cannot say for sure that there is a single unique way to arrive to that construct. In fact you will most likely see this pattern a lot as you go. So what is circle then? A path in a chain of logical conclusions or a destination? Can there be a destination without a path?

Fuserleer

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If you draw a perfect circle, then measure its diameter, measure its circumference, divide circumference by diameter, you get PI, always.

There's no intelligent design there, it just IS, it's fact, it's math, a circle is defined as an 2d object where the diameter is the same measured from any edge to another passing through the center, no intelligence, no magic, just math.

Just as 1+1 = 2, no intelligence, it just is.

If these facts are true, and there are other facts that ring true regardless of circumstance, then you have solid building blocks for a complex system without design.

pedrog

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Quote from: Spendulus on September 24, 2013, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 05:32:11 PM

.....

In my view, God is not separate from its Creation (and is definitely not a bearded elder on a cloud).....

Prove it.

He doesn't has to prove it, it's his "view", in my "view" the Flying Spaghetti Monster cannot be separated from His holly noodles and no one can prove me wrong!

Spendulus

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Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 05:32:11 PM

.....

In my view, God is not separate from its Creation (and is definitely not a bearded elder on a cloud).....

Prove it.

MAbtc

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Quote from: pedrog on September 20, 2013, 05:23:25 PM

So, earth is 6000 years old?

Spendulus

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Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 05:32:11 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on September 23, 2013, 02:03:30 PM

Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 10:03:58 AM

Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?....

No and no, and this is demonstrably a false assertion leading to a false conclusion based on incorrect premises. Errors all 3 steps of the way.

Don't take this too critically, it's not uncommon for people to see evidence of God in places like math, quantum physics, the structure of the Universe, etc...

I am addressing your assertion of a logical proof and that neither have you provided, can it be done, or should it be done.

I never mentioned God in this new thread, only intelligent design.

So you don't agree that:
1) results of the experiments form a pattern that has a mathematical structure.
2) mathematics is a result of intelligence (consciousness)

I don't know how you see the Universe, but it sure doesn't look like a chaotic mess to me

......

Neither (1) or (2) holds water. But if they did we would not have to go there to get where you wished to be, we could simply talk about a circle, and perhaps a square, and the mathematical structures they form. Thence, you could again argue that circles and squares were the result of intelligence, etc.

But that is nonsense. It is not that the circle is the result of intelligence, but that it requires intelligence, consciousness, etc to discuss it as an abstraction.

Let us move to your assertion that the Universe is 'not a chaotic mess". The mathematics of chaos are fundamental aspects of the reality of the Universe. Therefore if yet again you wish to impute a higher being, you must give it the intent to create chaos, and consider that as equally important as what may at first glance seem to be ordered structure.

To avoid the leap of faith which is implicit in your logic you must demonstrate a portion of nature that cannot exist without Turing machinery having prescribed essential aspects.

herzmeister

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Quote from: tinus42 on September 23, 2013, 05:52:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wdKlWXyUkc

yeah the architect here is a program too if that is what you mean, that's the technological singularity and all, still it's someone somewhere who eventually built the computer that was the predecessor. Someone human? It now begs the question what's the difference anyhow. The synthesis of "evolution" vs "intelligent design" -- they're one and the same.

tinus42

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Quote from: herzmeister on September 23, 2013, 07:28:56 AM

Well, if we're living in a computer simulation, then obviously there is a designer/programmer of the "Matrix computer code"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wdKlWXyUkc

Wilikon

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Quote from: interlagos on September 20, 2013, 03:56:16 PM

As a way to distract you all from boring day-to-day stuff and mostly for its entertainment value I present you "Amplituhedron - A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics":
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

Once again scientists have figured that complex interactions of particles in physical reality can be described by a single elegant geometric shape, which together with Garrett Lisi's E8 theory starts looking like a trend.

This thread is a continuation and addition to the months old topic started here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-theory-of-everything-and-the-truth-about-god-137350
and to some degree the one below:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-quantum-conspiracy-what-popularizers-of-qm-dont-want-you-to-know-141298
along with the points made in both.

If you find the article too much for your brain, here is a condensed 2 minute version talking directly to your heart, which I find equally entertaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3rMnvyXgQ

So don't worry! You won't miss the fun either way! Wink

My personal view is if this forum is as libertarian as it is supposed to be you should never feel the need to apologies to the people in advance, people who do not share your views. They will mock you anyway. So have fun and share away.

interlagos

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Quote from: Spendulus on September 23, 2013, 02:03:30 PM

Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 10:03:58 AM

Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?....

No and no, and this is demonstrably a false assertion leading to a false conclusion based on incorrect premises. Errors all 3 steps of the way.

Don't take this too critically, it's not uncommon for people to see evidence of God in places like math, quantum physics, the structure of the Universe, etc...

I am addressing your assertion of a logical proof and that neither have you provided, can it be done, or should it be done.

I never mentioned God in this new thread, only intelligent design.

So you don't agree that:
1) results of the experiments form a pattern that has a mathematical structure.
2) mathematics is a result of intelligence (consciousness)

I don't know how you see the Universe, but it sure doesn't look like a chaotic mess to me

Quote from: Luno on September 23, 2013, 02:48:50 PM

I also thought that Garrett Lisi was right after all after reading about the quantum mechanics geometrical symmetry.

Intelligent design is idiotic. God made the cosmological constants, then the universe build itself and life!

In my view, God is not separate from its Creation (and is definitely not a bearded elder on a cloud), because there is nothing else except God to create out of.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: interlagos on September 20, 2013, 03:56:16 PM

As a way to distract you all from boring day-to-day stuff and mostly for its entertainment value I present you "Amplituhedron - A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics":
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

Once again scientists have figured that complex interactions of particles in physical reality can be described by a single elegant geometric shape, which together with Garrett Lisi's E8 theory starts looking like a trend.

Simplicity is good. However, this reminds me of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem stuff again, which, translated into "common sense" says that you can't fully describe a (non-trivial) system from within itself. If we could, just imagine the possibilities! A fully-functional scale model of the universe with miniature scientists making even smaller fully-functional scale models of the universe!? That's basically what these positivist attempts at a "theory of everything" boil down to.

However, all it takes is a slight change of thinking to realise that we already have "fully functional scale models of the universe" inside our heads.

I've just found a wonderful explanation of how it can all work by Tom Campbell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RMOGFaOLSQ

It starts off by criticising existing scientific models of String Theory and Holographic Universe for their lack of wholeness (inability to explain the whole spectrum of phenomena instead of just physical reality) and various assumptions; and instead focuses on information and consciousness as the underlying true reality in which physical layer emerges as virtual simulated reality and serves as a playground for further evolution of consciousness. He also mentioned how emergence of Time was the next step in the evolution in order to explore new levels of complexity never possible before and how Process Fractals are the basic building blocks of this self-aware evolving system.

Luno

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I also thought that Garrett Lisi was right after all after reading about the quantum mechanics geometrical symmetry.

Intelligent design is idiotic. God made the cosmological constants, then the universe build itself and life!

Wilikon

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1.618 is a fluke. Wink

Spendulus

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Quote from: Spendulus on September 23, 2013, 02:02:08 PM

Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 10:03:58 AM

Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?....

No and no, and this is demonstrably a false assertion leading to a false conclusion based on incorrect premises. Errors all 3 steps of the way.

Don't take this too critically, it's not uncommon for people to see evidence of God in places like math, quantum physics, the structure of the Universe, etc...

I am addressing your assertion of a logical proof and that neither have you provided, can it be done, or should it be done.

Spendulus

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Activity: 2912

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Quote from: interlagos on September 23, 2013, 10:03:58 AM

Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?....

No and no, and this is demonstrably a false assertion based on incorrect premises.

interlagos

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Activity: 496

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Quote from: Littleshop on September 20, 2013, 06:56:32 PM

And this hints at intelligent design how?

The basic train of thought is this: If properties of space-time take their origin from a pure mathematical object, then one can assume that space-time is a result of some intelligence as all mathematics apparently is. Wouldn't you agree?

The article also mentions that space-time along with quantum mechanics are emergent from the geometry, so make what you want out of it.

Quote from: bythesea on September 23, 2013, 08:54:46 AM

How can a music be a prof of intelligent designer? Everything in the world and universe has its own frequency, giving music as a prof of a God is just stupid.

When Edgar Cayce was asked in his usual trance-channeling state "What is the Universe?". His short and only answer was: "Music of the Spheres".

Quote from: pedrog on September 20, 2013, 05:23:25 PM

So, earth is 6000 years old?

Quote from: dancupid on September 21, 2013, 03:17:28 PM

Will we need to worship this designer in some way (sing songs, sacrifice goats etc), or can we just ignore the fact and get on with our lives as normal?

Ok apparently it was my (failed) attempt at trolling. I got bored and decided to see what happens if I post this.

No need to sing songs or worship anyone, just relax and proceed as normal, I will be careful next time.

Quote from: herzmeister on September 23, 2013, 07:28:56 AM

Well, if we're living in a computer simulation, then obviously there is a designer/programmer of the "Matrix computer code".

What you may question is if we live within simulations within simulations within simulations, then it may only be the very first world that would have happened by evolution alone. All simulated worlds run largely on evolution but may have variable amounts of code.

It does look more and more like simulation to me. Maybe there is a reason we all love playing computer games - we are in one! Thanks for the links I'll have a look!

bythesea

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How can a music be a prof of intelligent designer? Everything in the world and universe has its own frequency, giving music as a prof of a God is just stupid.

herzmeister

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Well, if we're living in a computer simulation, then obviously there is a designer/programmer of the "Matrix computer code".

What you may question is if we live within simulations within simulations within simulations, then it may only be the very first world that would have happened by evolution alone. All simulated worlds run largely on evolution but may have variable amounts of code.

dancupid

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Quote from: interlagos on September 20, 2013, 03:56:16 PM

As a way to distract you all from boring day-to-day stuff and mostly for its entertainment value I present you "Amplituhedron - A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics":
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

Once again scientists have figured that complex interactions of particles in physical reality can be described by a single elegant geometric shape, which together with Garrett Lisi's E8 theory starts looking like a trend.

This thread is a continuation and addition to the months old topic started here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-theory-of-everything-and-the-truth-about-god-137350
and to some degree the one below:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-quantum-conspiracy-what-popularizers-of-qm-dont-want-you-to-know-141298
along with the points made in both.

If you find the article too much for your brain, here is a condensed 2 minute version talking directly to your heart, which I find equally entertaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3rMnvyXgQ

So don't worry! You won't miss the fun either way! Wink

Will we need to worship this designer in some way (sing songs, sacrifice goats etc), or can we just ignore the fact and get on with our lives as normal?

Littleshop

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Merit: 1004

And this hints at intelligent design how?

Topic: New breakthrough in science hints at Intelligent Design - page 3. (Read 7599 times)