Topic: ☃☃☃ New Crypto Idea! ☃☃☃ (Read 240 times)

I wonder what OP means by saving resources. These resources are provided for usage. We're just utilizing these resources and making the best of it. This is obviously the best thing we should be doing

I don't know if I understand it right so correct me if not. Are you talking about launching of cryptocurrency that has something to do in saving natural assets? Is it like Powerledger and Earth Token?

The concept of energy consumptions to obtain a profit in which human beings form their worlds disagress with your statement.
But that can be changed and will be changed. When? For sure not now, not in the next 30 years.

Remember what I said:  Miners provide only one component (albeit a very important one).  The validation of the network is done by all full nodes.  That’s critical to security; and miners can’t override full nodes, because full nodes will reject consensus-invalid blocks from miners.  Miners provide ordering of transactions, which full nodes could not otherwise agree upon.  But the validation rules are written into the nodes’ code, and change very rarely.

Full node operators don’t get paid for the security they (we) provide.  We do it for other reasons:  Using a full node is the most independent, most private, and most secure way to use Bitcoin.  Also, some of us have altruistic ideals about Bitcoin and want to see it succeed.  It is not necessary to pay nodes, because the cost is negligible compared to the cost of mining:  An ordinary computer with a few hundred GB of free hard disk space and a good Internet connection, all preferably being run 24/7.  Core has a policy of keeping node resource use low enough that anybody can afford to run a node.  I know a story of a (literally) homeless person who ran a node (!), with a second-hand laptop and public wifi hotspots; though that was rare, and it did not work out so well in the long run.  By contrast, as you know, even a small mining outfit requires a huge upfront investment and ongoing cost.

Now, back to the main issue here:  There is a connection between mining cost and Bitcoin value, but it is rather the inverse of what you say.

For their part of securing the network, miners must provide security which no single person or entity in the world can break.  This requires that no single person or entity can have a big enough proportion of mining power to execute a so-called “51% attack”.  Subtler attacks to corrupt the network could actually be done by a single entity with only about 30% of hashrate; but let’s not complicate the discussion for now.  The point is, it must be impractical for any single person or entity to control a majority of hashpower on the network.  In this context, “impractical” means somewhere between so expensive as to be ridiculously unprofitable, and infeasible to the degree that nobody could do it even if they were willing to lose money.

Well, you may ask:  Couldn’t somebody rich just go out and buy lots of ASICS to boost their hashpower?  Yes, yes indeed.  The reason why this does not result in a single party having “51% attack” power is that miners are in constant competition with each other.  Each wants a greater percentage of the hashpower, because a greater percentage of hashpower translates directly to a higher probability of finding blocks (and thus getting paid).  Miner X will buy a bunch of new hardware, and then Miner Y will buy new hardware to keep up, and Miner Z will compete with both of them.  That way, each miner’s selfish interest prevents the others from taking over the network hashpower.  This is by design.

It is an ingenious design, by the way.  Unfortunate in certain aspects—but ingenious!  In this and many other ways, Bitcoin secures itself by relying on the power of human selfishness.  Everybody’s greed forces everybody else’s greed under control.  It is the most reliable system ever yet conceived in this world; for in the realm of human affairs, there is nothing more reliable than depending on people to be selfish!

The problem is, this results in constantly increasing resource use.  There is a limit to that increase:  The limit is the value of Bitcoin.  Miners X, Y, and Z will cool down their competition a bit and reach a sort of equilibrium, when the cost of more hardware and electricity exceeds the value they would get from having more hashpower.  The higher the value of Bitcoin rises, the higher that limit is raised.

Thus, as you can see:  The difficulty and expense of mining does not control the value of Bitcoin.  Rather, the inverse:  The value of Bitcoin limits the difficulty and expense of mining.  If Bitcoin were to crash and stay that way, then many miners would go out of business; and the survivors would continue operating on a smaller budget, using less hardware and electricity.  They would compete less, because further competition would be unprofitable.  Mining difficulty would drop.

Note also another ingenious feature:  The higher the value of Bitcoin, the fiercer the miners’ competition to secure its Byzantine fault tolerance—and thus, the higher the difficulty of breaking that security, commensurately to the value which must be secured.  That is how Bitcoin could stay secure both in the beginning, when the coins were almost worthless, and now, when the network as a whole secures the equivalent of hundreds of billions of dollars in value.  Higher value causes higher security—indirectly, but nevertheless.  Again, this is by design.  Satoshi’s design.  It is a thing of beauty, in itself.


I appreciate that last sentence, particularly.

If you want to learn with an open mind, Bitcoin is a beautiful and challenging world.  I suggest you should brush up on the basics with the documentation at bitcoin.org, as well as the Bitcoin Wiki.  Then, you will be better equipped to ask smart questions here on this forum.  There are plenty of helpful people here.  For my part, I like being helpful, too (although I am not so nice as others when I see something I think is stupid).

I would also suggest you “lurk” awhile.  Make fewer posts, read more posts, until you get a feel for things.  Unfortunately, there is currently a surfeit of low-quality posts; that is why I get so angry, you see.  But you will still find many intelligent threads; and the archives here are a gold mine of information, if you know how to search them.  Satoshi Nakamoto used to post here, before he vanished.  The Core developers also used to post here much more frequently, although most of them don’t post much anymore.  Some do.

I’m happy to help here, if/when I see that it’s actually building something in a positive direction.

Your idea seems to be lightning and bright, but it should be practically easy to applicate ( because the hardest path to achieve such project is the applicative step-by-step ). So it's important to develop your idea by planning progressive procedures and measures that should be taken.
Good luck

Yes I have! And Fiat certainly wastes a lot, if not more than Crypto. The problem is 99% of the world is using Fiat and now 1% of the world is using Crypto. This means we are paying DOUBLE DUTY! We are burning through resources at an alarming rate. And bitcoin is only going to cost more and more to produce. Technically, we should be able to make a very environmental friendly crypto. Or alter (no pun intended) Bitcoin to become that

Right now Crypto is 1/100 the size of Fiat but the fees are 27x as much! That is simply not practical to scale




Very good point. I can agree with that

ShortCoins
Newbie

Activity: 14
Posts: 195

Total time logged in: 1 days, 13 hours and 40 minutes


I can only post every 6 minutes, so I spend a lot of time reading other threads and trying to learn. Ive spent 37 hours on this forum in just the last few days. I have no motives except to learn about crypto. And just to be upfront about everything, I did think crypto was going to go down with the introduction of options - and I was wrong. I did make my name ShortCoins expecting that to happen, but I had no stake in it either way.

I'm not here to spread FUD or low quality topics. Some of my threads were garbage, I am a newbie and learning the ropes.

Anyhow - back to bitcoin and crypto

Really nice post nullius, thank you.

I spent a few minutes rereading it. Perhaps the correlation between mining costs and bitcoin price is not as straightforward as I thought.

I like how you simplified for me what miners are doing: Security. But here is where I start to get lost. Doesn't security become more and more expensive to provide? And essentially that concept is what drives the Bitcoin prices higher at the end of the day? The fact that we know we are going to have to waste more resources to provide that additional security.

So basically this is how I'm simplifying it in my own head:

 mining fees = security = always increasing = bitcoin price rise


You have definitely spent the time to learn the Crypto space and I respect that. I apologize if I only bring abstract ideas to the table like "can we make bitcoin more eco friendly?" instead of having the technical solutions. I'll try to learn from you. I'm here because I want to be convinced... if you can believe that. I'm still going to make topics that express my opinion but ill make a concerted effort to increase the quality of my posts

I guess you are right. This is not good. It looks like the moderators have given up to this flood too..!! The guy has like 200 posts in 5 days..And he'll bring in his buddies in a while to vouch for him!
This is a post apocalyptic landscape and these Alts and shit-posters are "The Walkers"..Where do all you zombies come from??..lol

Lets survive!

I post because I enjoy talking about bitcoin. Really my activity number means nothing to me lol. I think I have around 170 posts? Because I want to post and share my thoughts not because I am doing a campaign. I have 0 intentions to do any faucets, campaigns, etc. I am actually open to the idea of "investing" in crypto and I am hoping to find a reason to. Possibly even on this forum.

My investment strategy has always been:

1. Buy entire markets don't stock pick etc (ETFs)
2. Least amount of commissions possible and use new brokerage accounts to trade for free
3. Least amount of fees possible when liquidating investments

So I buy something like QQQ commission free. I re-invest dividends free. And I pay one fee to sell the entirety of my shares.

I believe most people will lose money investing because of a) time value of money and b) entering and exiting too much which causes fees to become to great of a percentage of the investment


I can translate this strategy to bitcoin.

Step 1. Long Options on entire coin market or wait for a crypto index that isn't a complete scam
Step 2. Avoid paying fees for wallets and exchanges by not actually holding any coins. If I do buy coins don't move or transfer them apart from initial security.
Step 3. Open a new brokerage account to buy the indexes/options for incentives

I think they are alts just making posts and talking to each other increasing their posts counts. They have done around 200 posts in last 2-3 weeks and guess what they make most of the conversations with each other. When have you really seen a person quarreling upon an issue that another member instead of replying him on the thread created another thread.

Still a currency aimed at preserving earth in a meaningful way could offer more than being a safer method of making money than oil. For example, if trees would be planted if certain goals are met or something in that direction. It could still be set up like current altcoins, but paired with the goal helping out the environment.

On another note, since you express desire for “stimulating discussion”, I wish to address this on a technical level.  Speaking here only as to Bitcoin, since “crypto” is such a fuzzy buzzword nowadays:


It is a common and pernicious myth that mining gives Bitcoin its value.  It doesn’t—at least, not directly.  Mining does contribute to the security of Bitcoin, which in turn enables Bitcoin to become valuable.  But it is only one subsystem in an intricate machine, and not in any way Bitcoin’s font of value.

A quick explanation of what mining actually does:

As you perhaps understand (and please say if you do not), Bitcoin is a global, distributed ledger.  A decentralized ledger, which must be kept absolutely synchronized between untrusted and mutually untrusting nodes.  This raises something which crypto eggheads call the “double-spend problem”:  How can a thief be stopped from cheating the system by sending the same money to two different people at once, by creating two different entries in two disagreeing versions of the ledger?

Preventing double-spends requires everybody in the entire world to agree on the ordering of transactions:  If the thief sent the same money to Alice, then a microsecond later to Bob, then somehow Alice and Bob must both know that Alice got the money first, and the second transaction was therefore invalid.

This is where the theoreticians start talking about Byzantine Generals and Byzantine Fault Tolerance.  I would not usually drop a Wikipedia link; but this should give a reasonable overview at a level comprehensible to any intelligent person:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault_tolerance

In Bitcoin, “miners” provide Byzantine Fault Tolerance to the network’s enforcement of the ordering of the transactions.  That is what miners do.  That is all miners do.  It is a very valuable task—a “large roll [sic]”, as you put it; that is why miners get paid for performing it.  But nevertheless, it is only one component of Bitcoin.

For an excellent overview of all the moving parts in the Bitcoin machine, their various histories, and how Satoshi fit them all together, I suggest this article:

Narayanan, A; Clark, J.  “Bitcoin's Academic Pedigree”.  ACM Queue, vol. 15 issue 4 (2017-08-29)

Now, as you can see:

0. Miners do not create the value of Bitcoin.

1. To make a cryptocurrency which does not require resource use similar to Bitcoin’s proof-of-work mining, you must find some other way to provide Byzantine Fault Tolerance.  Well—either that, or discard the decentralized property of the network, and put the network under the substantial control of a central trusted party.  Digicash in the 1990s was a cryptography-based currency which did not need any “mining” scheme, because it relied on a bank to issue notes and prevent double-spends.  But reliance on central trusted parties is anathema to Bitcoin.  Observe too, Digicash failed because no bank wanted to be its central trusted party!

Very smart people spent about two decades trying to overcome the double-spend problem.  Satoshi Nakamoto was the first person ever to proffer a solution which did not rely on a trusted party.  Other schemes (such as proof-of-stake) have been proposed; but none has the security properties of Bitcoin’s proof-of-work.  Perhaps some rare genius may someday outdo Satoshi, and invent a new way to provide Byzantine Fault Tolerance; but thus far, nobody has.  I know I’ve tried.  I have spent endless hours and months and years pondering this precise issue.

Contra what you say, this is not a “New Crypto Idea!”  Not new at all.  But it is really not an easy problem.  It is not a matter of waving your hands and saying, “What if there was a way to create crypto based on saving resources rather than based on destroying resources”.  What if there was a way?  Well, how?

By the way, just in case you think that by creating topics and perpetually answering yourself will get you to 1000 posts and legendary level within a month, then you should know that this ain't how it works...

  activity = min(time * 14, posts)

Also read this:
  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/newbies-read-before-posting-1689727 

Meanwhile, I'll waiting for you to play the victim card again and say that you are genuinely interested and you have been contributing in the discussion with your "valid and serious" questions on the future of bitcoin which people here haven't yet thought of..Coz they had been waiting for Shortcoin Jesus till now..!!

That'll explain why have you taken it upon yourself and your newbie account to single-handedly occupy the forum with your never-ending drivel!! AND your Emoji-decorations.

  Christmas is still a few days away man. Don't get so festive already!! 

And you are a victim-card playing spammer. If the forum wasn't filled with people who post replies to any post just to add to their count (without reading about the crap you've been repeatedly spewing), you would have desisted from this.

You are clever enough to realize that this works for you because most people won't bother about calling you out for your irrational behaviour.
If nothing else, stop with those stupid emoji highlights dude.

About your stimulating discussion. What on earth do you mean by "ïf it somehow  worked by asset preservation??"

What part of Proof-of-Work/ Proof-of-Stake algorithms don't you understand? Just asking pie-in-the-sky questions doesn't make for a discussion. This is the kind of self-righteous, hippie behavior that makes otherwise reasonable people question the motives of all those green warriors.
You cannot not use energy for everything. Lets hear an alternative from you to enable ässet preservation" or whatever fancy title you want to come up with next..If you cannot then just STOP creating topics..Your thoughts are not so unique and revolutionary that you want to keep creating new topics every hour...LOL..
Just google your "ideas" and you'll have plenty to read!

Crypto uses electricity. It's one of the most ecologically safe sources of energy. I see no problem here. Making money out of electricity is better than making money out of oil that has a limit and can harm the ecology.

Ok Nullius, you are right. Have fun

ShortCoins, knock off the faux reasonable act.  Stop trying to play the victim here.  You have been rapid-fire creating new topics all week, all converging on the same general idea; and here, you posted a partly duplicative thread only ten minutes before this one.

(There:  Alleging that “The value of crypto comes from the fact that electricity, man hours, and hardware are destroyed in order to create. We are essentially destroying resources...”  Here:  Speaking of how “crypto” is “wasteful” and “destroying resources”.  Your other near-simultaneous thread was also a copypaste of one of your other posts from yet another thread; and if you truly sought “stimulating discussion” as you claim, you would have replied to the the quite reasonable question I asked you.  [Edit:  The copypasted post plausibly appears to have been a mistake; I’ll take that up in the other thread...])

It’s also only a forked tongue hanging out of your head when you say, “let us talk about improving crypto and the world”.  You’ve been doing nothing but preaching the evils of “crypto” since Saturday night.  Twelve hours before this thread, you asked, “☠☠☠ Is Crypto A Rip-O? ☠☠☠”  How stupid do you think people here must be?

As for your allegations of “stalking and harassing”, you already threatened that you will “take action”.  So, have at it.  Or maybe look up what those words mean.


(I will leave aside that you’re here pretending to make some revelatory observation, whereas you give a shallow retread a topic which has been discussed repeatedly, everywhere, for about the past nine years.  Beating a dead horse would be something I simply ignore.)

Lets fast forward to the year 2100;

Lets Just Guess:
Bitcoin is the world currency
Prices are still through the roof
We have mined 20m/21m of the coins


What will we have accomplished in 91 years? Well you can bet those mining costs in 2100 to create the last 1m BTC will be insane. We will have destroyed so many resources by then that we will barely need a currency. If mining destroys enough assets and actual resources, it could get to the point where we literally can't stop it. Because people will be rushing to acquire the last of the currency and resources. I think the idea that bitcoin is finite is both attracting and alarming. A finite amount of currency reflects the sad truth about a finite amount of resources. I fear this currency will be used to further divide the wealth classes rather than bring us together. I wish we could learn to share. And realize the future is all that matters




Thanks for sharing about BTC-Green, I will check it out. I'm actually interested a lot in the ICO side of crypto and want to look into that more too!

I really think we need to do our part in preventing the destruction of our earth and global warming is a real problem and threatening to destroy it, and I think BTC-Green is a promising ICO that have a hearth in opening up to the environment and it is a modern digital payment system that serve for the large group of community that is implementing environmental projects, I think they establish a new cryptocurrency Idea.