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Topic: New way of fundraising/ICO: eTokens (eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc) (Read 742 times)

trk
full member
Activity: 228
Merit: 100
It's free money btw, who doesnt love one?
But please make sure not to spend any money on it, only airdrop token you got from airdrop
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
I chatted with a securities lawyer indirectly through another person, i.e. I do not know who the attorney is and I do not want to know (unless I need to hire such an attorney formally), but he did read my prior post. This was a very informal discussion and not to be construed as legal advice. Nothing I am writing below can be construed to have been written by any attorney. These are my own thoughts. The attorney actually did not state any of the following. These are my own conclusions.

What I realized is now obvious in hindsight, although what I say below was not articulated by the attorney. This is my own conclusion that spawned from the ideas that were raised in the brief informal brainstorming discussion. Realize I am analysing from the conservative perspective on what is reasonably safe to presume, and not wanting to lawyer up and take a huge risk of losing in some regulators’ court in the many jurisdictions around the world (i.e. multifarious jurisdictional jeopardy).

Airdrop re-issuance does not remove the fact that if was a security before, it remains a security after, because the distribution has not changed. There needs to be a stronger disconnection between the prior token which is presumed to be a security (e.g. was ICO issued) and the new airdropped (i.e. reissued) one, otherwise the economic reality has not changed: which is that token and all its derivatives are subject to the resale restrictions on the issued security.

Contrast this with a fork that does not airdrop the same distribution, i.e. not an airdropped xerox copy of a preexisting token’s distribution.

Thus if EOS is a security, the airdropped eEOS would be also. The reissuer of eEOS may or may not be culpable as a common enterprise under the Howey test depending on the circumstances. I was arguing coherently about the issuer perhaps not being culpable, but I was not arguing correctly about the token converting from security to a non-security due to the airdrop.

The mistake in my logic was that just because the issuer might not be culpable for reissuing (i.e. no investment contract formed with the original investors), that does not change the economic reality that the new distribution is the same as the prior one.

Actually the attorney did not actually state it that way, but I realized it after carrying forward his concerns into a more coherent understanding of the orthogonal facets of the culpability of the reissuer of the airdrop vs. the security-status of the airdropped token.

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.

IOW, if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Xerox copying the distribution of security, is still the same security (regardless of the culpability of the issuer of the airdrop).

The new issuance is also a dividend. But unlike chocolate candy gifts given as dividends to shareholders or token holders, the airdropped token has same tradeable and fungible qualities of the ICO issued token, thus it still quacks the same and has the same familial structure (aka distribution). The economic reality has not changed.

That is to say that randomly dropping freeware like-kinded things to the investors of the security, doesn’t change the nature of the thing, even though the entity doing the dropping (giving) is not necessarily (depending on the circumstances) culpable for reissuing a security.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.

using an airdrop to avoid the securities problem seems to be just trying to use a loophole to get around the problem. i would think such a loophole would be closed fast. if there is a one to one correlation between the tokens it will be treated the same as the original imo. even if it seems to pass the hewey test initially i would worry that such a token will wind up being treated as a security down the line, jeopardizing any project associated with it.

Well the principle explained in the newly released SAFT white paper, is that when the common enterprise or any other prong of the Howey test such as “from the efforts of others” has ceased, then the sales of the tokens are no longer securities. However, the underwriter principle has to be dealt with which seems to not allow a token to magically convert from security to non-security unless the investors have held the token for up to 3 years. The SAFT proposes another way to side-step the underwriter aspect:

[…]

Moreover, since the tokens are not securities and the SAFT is non-transferrable, the investors do not, merely by purchasing the SAFT, risk being deemed underwriters if they resell their tokens.⁷⁵

⁷⁵ Investors are participants in the distribution of the utility tokens following conversion of the SAFT, but the token is not a security. Though the SAFT is a security, they do not distribute it. The definition of underwriter under the Federal Securities Laws is limited to the participation in a distribution of a security, thus SAFT investors need not fall within the definition or risk exposure associated with being deemed an underwriter. See Securities Act Section 2(a)(11), 15 U.S.C. § 77b(a)(11).

So by the above logic, a token which was issued and sold as a security (e.g. pre-functional vaporware ICO), would not necessarily become a non-security when it is sold by investors later when it is fully-functional and has sufficient free market factors other than just ongoing developer efforts, i.e. when the “from ongoing efforts of others” prong of Howey is no longer satisfied. Because the investors could be considered underwriters if they had not held the token for some reason other than to distribute it, which as I had pointed out upthread may require up to a 3 year hold before selling.

The separation of the issuance into a security that has rights for a token (instead of issuing a pre-functional token or promise) and separate issuance of the fully-function token is argued that the investors in the former (e.g. a SAFT) had no intention to distribute a security because the fully-functional token is argued to not be a security because it fails the “from ongoing efforts of others” prong of Howey. Whether the issue of the former security (which can be traded for a fully-functional platform token later) was legal is a separate issue, with for example EOS’ issuance being very suspect of not complying with securities regulations.

The question is does that also apply to an airdrop with the same distribution. I think the key factor is whether that airdrop is indeed a free market action or some premeditated or expected action undertaking by the original common enterprise (however so obfuscated).
member
Activity: 227
Merit: 26
PRiVCYM4tters🕵🔐PRiVCY MOD🕵
eTokens blew up so quick and also got dumped just as quick for most of them. I'm curious to see if any of these hold any real value long term. People can certainly make some quick money by a pump and dump of them. I've gottena bunch myself to see how they do. I'd still like to see long term estimates on any of them.. a lot of people hating on them hard. We'll see how they develop.
full member
Activity: 630
Merit: 100
They are all being deleted by the mods for being fraudulent pump and dump coins. Not worth getting involved in e-coins. I wonder if this will have an impact on the price of Ethereum for allowing scams on their system
sr. member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 310
it depends on how people are going to support the token or not
if no one support a token the price or value of a token goes down
just like everybody else no support less productive
thats how things go on earth
full member
Activity: 350
Merit: 100
How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?


All those “e”coins are certainly confusing. Specially for beginners like me. Although they do this because they are aiming for protection from whales taking advantage to manipulae these coin’s prices, I really do not think it could do so mch to help. Because there are still a handful of ways to do what people want to do. Specially the biggest whales in the crypto world. Simply because they are capable. A good way is waiting before a certain coin gets accepted on an exchange and buying a hol bunch to pump the price then wait for dumbfcks to buy and increase the price more before whales dump. These whales really cannot be stipped. So i really wanna know what other purpose does this “e”coins serve.
jr. member
Activity: 57
Merit: 10
It's good for the newbies to hop in and get onboard with the legitimate ones.
legendary
Activity: 1315
Merit: 1002
Will see in the future, if those "tokens" will evolve into anything tangible at all.

I applied to some, just for a test, but still havent received none of them, so i quitted, gave up, don't even look at them anymore.

But as many times I was wrong I could be wrong this time too with saying those, again "token", will go to oblivion. At the end some of them might even see some bright future. But i doubt seriously, but again, all depends on the community.
full member
Activity: 382
Merit: 101
That all was shit token. But it make me a free money so i cannot blamed anyone that fall to be a victim to this shit token. It just a pump and dump token just wait for it to die. Just like that. Token that has no use instead to be dump.
hero member
Activity: 1568
Merit: 511
How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

Except from eBTC which is the pioneer in this recent trend, i guess most other are just mainly looking for quick profit as they premined themselves.
When it is launch, i expect them to immediately dumb
sr. member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 310
This is a best way to test crypto currency and also test how long these chain
can go, also giving free tokens to our friends here
also helping others
newbie
Activity: 44
Merit: 0
Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
I chatted with a securities lawyer indirectly through another person, i.e. I do not know who the attorney is and I do not want to know (unless I need to hire such an attorney formally), but he did read my prior post. This was a very informal discussion and not to be construed as legal advice. Nothing I am writing below can be construed to have been written by any attorney. These are my own thoughts. The attorney actually did not state any of the following. These are my own conclusions.

What I realized is now obvious in hindsight, although what I say below was not articulated by the attorney. This is my own conclusion that spawned from the ideas that were raised in the brief informal brainstorming discussion. Realize I am analysing from the conservative perspective on what is reasonably safe to presume, and not wanting to lawyer up and take a huge risk of losing in some regulators’ court in the many jurisdictions around the world (i.e. multifarious jurisdictional jeopardy).

Airdrop re-issuance does not remove the fact that if was a security before, it remains a security after, because the distribution has not changed. There needs to be a stronger disconnection between the prior token which is presumed to be a security (e.g. was ICO issued) and the new airdropped (i.e. reissued) one, otherwise the economic reality has not changed: which is that token and all its derivatives are subject to the resale restrictions on the issued security.

Contrast this with a fork that does not airdrop the same distribution, i.e. not an airdropped xerox copy of a preexisting token’s distribution.

Thus if EOS is a security, the airdropped eEOS would be also. The reissuer of eEOS may or may not be culpable as a common enterprise under the Howey test depending on the circumstances. I was arguing coherently about the issuer perhaps not being culpable, but I was not arguing correctly about the token converting from security to a non-security due to the airdrop.

The mistake in my logic was that just because the issuer might not be culpable for reissuing (i.e. no investment contract formed with the original investors), that does not change the economic reality that the new distribution is the same as the prior one.

Actually the attorney did not actually state it that way, but I realized it after carrying forward his concerns into a more coherent understanding of the orthogonal facets of the culpability of the reissuer of the airdrop vs. the security-status of the airdropped token.

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.

IOW, if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Xerox copying the distribution of security, is still the same security (regardless of the culpability of the issuer of the airdrop).

The new issuance is also a dividend. But unlike chocolate candy gifts given as dividends to shareholders or token holders, the airdropped token has same tradeable and fungible qualities of the ICO issued token, thus it still quacks the same and has the same familial structure (aka distribution). The economic reality has not changed.

That is to say that randomly dropping freeware like-kinded things to the investors of the security, doesn’t change the nature of the thing, even though the entity doing the dropping (giving) is not necessarily (depending on the circumstances) culpable for reissuing a security.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.

using an airdrop to avoid the securities problem seems to be just trying to use a loophole to get around the problem. i would think such a loophole would be closed fast. if there is a one to one correlation between the tokens it will be treated the same as the original imo. even if it seems to pass the hewey test initially i would worry that such a token will wind up being treated as a security down the line, jeopardizing any project associated with it.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
How is this protected against whales? (Sorry to lazy to search Tongue)
member
Activity: 102
Merit: 10
How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

I think they have no meaning besides raising fund.

It is funny to have eLTC, ELTC, ELTCoin, ....
They are so confusing, even etherdelta.com listing eLTC and ELTC. Do you expect general users can distinguish them?

The same confusing scenario happens on WAVES platform too.

We really need some ways to fix or control the name/ticker reloading issues on this scammy issuance of eXXXX tokens.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1000
I'm getting tired of these "e" tokens already. It's pretty silly to hope they would be cost anything at all. Dont you think so?
sr. member
Activity: 728
Merit: 254
the rise of etokens lately has kept me wondering, but one thing am still unsetting about is the purpose of creating these etokens, first it was eBTC and i was just trying to do some reseach on and here come eLTC, eDASH etc etc kind of crazy. what significance does this eTOKEN has over the coin TOKEN we already known of, such as btc, eth etc etc?
could it be that its one dev that is creating all these eTOKENS? atleast out of all the eTOKENs created one must gain momentum. its setting
sr. member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 310
Participating in airdrop i think is nice
not only invite everyone to get some free coins
but also get their opinion on every aspect
this will help developer if they are going to push through or not the more members the more
it will get attention to investor, this is not just for free
this will help lessen the load in the network
transaction faster, you may think that this is just a coin, this help us
everyday, in the near future , faster transactions and most importantly, we enjoy this for now ,
but once this has been push and you dont have even 1 coin you'll regret it
just like btc
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
We will. We will. Block chain. Block chain.
How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

I think it's great ...for those that can get involved
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
I chatted with a securities lawyer indirectly through another person, i.e. I do not know who the attorney is and I do not want to know (unless I need to hire such an attorney formally), but he did read my prior post. This was a very informal discussion and not to be construed as legal advice. Nothing I am writing below can be construed to have been written by any attorney. These are my own thoughts. The attorney actually did not state any of the following. These are my own conclusions.

What I realized is now obvious in hindsight, although what I say below was not articulated by the attorney. This is my own conclusion that spawned from the ideas that were raised in the brief informal brainstorming discussion. Realize I am analysing from the conservative perspective on what is reasonably safe to presume, and not wanting to lawyer up and take a huge risk of losing in some regulators’ court in the many jurisdictions around the world (i.e. multifarious jurisdictional jeopardy).

Airdrop re-issuance does not remove the fact that if was a security before, it remains a security after, because the distribution has not changed. There needs to be a stronger disconnection between the prior token which is presumed to be a security (e.g. was ICO issued) and the new airdropped (i.e. reissued) one, otherwise the economic reality has not changed: which is that token and all its derivatives are subject to the resale restrictions on the issued security.

Contrast this with a fork that does not airdrop the same distribution, i.e. not an airdropped xerox copy of a preexisting token’s distribution.

Thus if EOS is a security, the airdropped eEOS would be also. The reissuer of eEOS may or may not be culpable as a common enterprise under the Howey test depending on the circumstances. I was arguing coherently about the issuer perhaps not being culpable, but I was not arguing correctly about the token converting from security to a non-security due to the airdrop.

The mistake in my logic was that just because the issuer might not be culpable for reissuing (i.e. no investment contract formed with the original investors), that does not change the economic reality that the new distribution is the same as the prior one.

Actually the attorney did not actually state it that way, but I realized it after carrying forward his concerns into a more coherent understanding of the orthogonal facets of the culpability of the reissuer of the airdrop vs. the security-status of the airdropped token.

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.

IOW, if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Xerox copying the distribution of security, is still the same security (regardless of the culpability of the issuer of the airdrop).

The new issuance is also a dividend. But unlike chocolate candy gifts given as dividends to shareholders or token holders, the airdropped token has same tradeable and fungible qualities of the ICO issued token, thus it still quacks the same and has the same familial structure (aka distribution). The economic reality has not changed.

That is to say that randomly dropping freeware like-kinded things to the investors of the security, doesn’t change the nature of the thing, even though the entity doing the dropping (giving) is not necessarily (depending on the circumstances) culpable for reissuing a security.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.
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