[NEWS] Biden budget proposes 30% tax on crypto mining electricity usage - page 2.

Lucius

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Quote from: mindrust on March 11, 2023, 06:51:52 AM

And this clown was supposed to be a crypto friendly president unlike Trump. Cool

Trump never liked crypto and he expressed his opinions very clearly but he never tried to rob us like that. This is a direct move to eliminate crypto mining. Who in the right mind would mine crypto in the US now? China banned crypto mining and US is going to put a tax on it which is a ban in disguise. Supporting this guy as a president was a huge mistake and now is the payback time.

Maybe you should look at what Trump proposed regarding cryptocurrencies at the very end of his mandate, and Biden suspended all of that when he took office. In addition, Trump could not be good or bad towards BTC miners, because they became a "problem" a little later, or maybe at the time when he encouraged angry mobs to attack government institutions and kill innocent people.

If by any chance you are a US voter, then you will have the opportunity to re-elect Trump, and just for information, this bank that failed a few days ago might not have failed if Trump had not abolished the mandatory checks that existed before. The policy implemented by the US is always more or less the same, the only question is who they appoint as president - someone with dark skin, someone who openly supports violence, or someone who at times does not even know where he is or that he is president at all.

davis196

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It's funny that there are conspiracy theorists, who still think that Bitcoin was created by the CIA.
If Bitcoin was really created by the CIA, then why would the US government try to punish all BTC miners?
The anti-Bitcoin forces will always find a way to attack Bitcoin. First it was "BTC mining pollutes the environment.", many BTC miners started using green energy, now it's just "We don't like BTC mining, we are going to tax it." We just can't make the anti-Bitcoiners happy. Grin

Anyway, the hashrate will be adjusted and many miners will have to move somewhere else. There will be price turbulence, but we are still in a crypto winter, so who cares... Grin

Godday

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That's Crazy I thought! 30% is a damn number for taxes. I feel like I'm being blackmailed by the government. This is very burdensome for cryptocurrency mining companies. This also burdens all crypto transactions or investors who have stored their funds in the form of cryptocurrency assets. Maybe in future India will be the number 1 country in cryptocurrency world because I have seen there are many people or companies in India who are interested and are developing a decentralized system. Some of my friends from India said that their country can accept cryptocurrency and they are very excited to learn what cryptocurrency is and how it works. I don't know if there are Indians here but that is what my friends from India have been telling me. peace! Grin

pooya87

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Quote from: Lucius on March 11, 2023, 06:00:33 AM

Someone who would like to have a serious mining farm in the US and steal electricity would probably be discovered very quickly, because you can't just hide that amount of energy. This is also confirmed by one of your sources where they say literally :

That's true. The larger the operation the harder it gets to hide it, but it still not impossible. In fact one of the biggest theft cases in United States is from those who steal electricity to grow weed (I believe it is with sun lamps underground) which is 2 illegal things at the same time. They do it without getting caught that easily.
We should also consider the small time miners that consume far less amount of electricity compared to a farm that could also hide their electricity theft easier.

pawanjain

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Quote from: pooya87 on March 11, 2023, 04:37:51 AM

Quote from: pawanjain on March 10, 2023, 09:25:26 AM

Quote from: mk4 on March 09, 2023, 10:46:58 PM

From 10% to 30%. A huge ass jump that I don't think there's any reason for mining companies to stay in the United States. What's probably going to be left is the home miners who may or may not declare their mining operations.

I guess India was better at this by straightly imposing a 30% tax on crypto income directly.
So we basically have to pay 30% from our profits on crypto trading to the government.
I know thats a huge cut from our profits but at least we didn't go from 10% to 30% . Lol .
Still, it at least makes crypto trading legal in India (for the time being).

I'm not a "tax expert" but I think that is only slightly higher than what is paid elsewhere. The tax on the profit from cryptocurrency trading should be categorized under "Capital Gains tax" and that usually is around 20% in most countries but can go up as high as 30%.

Yeah that is true. Even in India, there are capital gains divided as short term capital gains and long term capital gains.
Short term are taxed around 15% and long term are taxed around 20%.
Tax on any kind of crypto income are taxed at 30%. The government made this move to decrease crypto usage/trading in India.
Hopefully this changes in future though.

dansus021

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Quote from: mk4 on March 09, 2023, 10:46:58 PM

From 10% to 30%. A huge ass jump that I don't think there's any reason for mining companies to stay in the United States. What's probably going to be left is the home miners who may or may not declare their mining operations.

Yeah its a huge jump and most of them might run away or just paid the tax till new regulation says "BAN ON CRYPTO MINING". or like you said they might declare non-mining operation and say it datacenter or so.

Kazakhstan is crypto mining friendly but I don't know until when it going to last. Since there is news that says "An individual's income from the sale of digital asset issued by a foreign issuer will be subject to personal income tax at the rate of 10%. The taxable basis will be the positive difference between the sales price and the purchase price of the digital asset." - https://www.mondaq.com/tax-authorities/1290116/changes-in-the-digital-mining-taxation-in-kazakhstans

beerlover

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Quote from: Haunebu on March 10, 2023, 10:15:26 AM

I find it funny seeing so many people think that this has already become a law already. There's a huge difference between proposal and law. Crazy crypto related proposals are suggested all the time, but very few become laws.

This particular proposal sounds like one of those proposals which will get swept under the rug pretty quickly since US senators stand to lose more thanks to it in the long-term.

Stop jumping to conclusions and think for a second. Just my 2 cents.

That is the saddest thing about media and it really hurts me deep down. You could always title something as good or bad and convince people accordingly, and if enough news people do that, then suddenly one thing could become very good or bad. Lets take this for example, 30% tax proposal right, that is the FACT we have right now.

You can name it "Biden finally accepts crypto by putting 30% tax regulations to legitimize it" and that is taking the fact and stretching the truth to make it look bad, or you can title it "Biden wants to warn people against crypto and put 30% tax on it" type of thing and that would be bad, just name whatever and people who do not know the reality will fall for it.

mindrust

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And this clown was supposed to be a crypto friendly president unlike Trump. Cool

Trump never liked crypto and he expressed his opinions very clearly but he never tried to rob us like that. This is a direct move to eliminate crypto mining. Who in the right mind would mine crypto in the US now? China banned crypto mining and US is going to put a tax on it which is a ban in disguise. Supporting this guy as a president was a huge mistake and now is the payback time.

LoyceV

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Quote from: thecodebear on March 09, 2023, 10:38:24 PM

If bitcoin mining is gonna be taxes why isn't all electrical usage taxed 30%? Makes no sense to single out a specific industry for its electrical use. That's just horrendous policy.

Here, energy taxes get lower once you consume more electricity. We pay €0.12599 per kWh in tax for the first 10,000 kWh, and that gradually drops to €0.00115 when you use more than 10 million kWh per year. Plus 21% GST, of course.
This is why Bitcoin mining has never been much of a thing where I live. It's not competitive.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on March 09, 2023, 10:16:41 PM

United States crypto miners could eventually be subject to a 30% tax on electricity costs under a budget proposal by President Joe Biden aimed to “reduce mining activity.”

Read in full https://cointelegraph.com/news/biden-budget-proposes-30-tax-on-crypto-mining-electricity-usage

The real question is what are they trying to accomplish. The source claims this:

Quote from: https://cointelegraph.com/news/biden-budget-proposes-30-tax-on-crypto-mining-electricity-usage

In its reasoning for the tax, the Treasury claimed the energy consumption of crypto mining operations “has negative environmental effects,” increases prices for those sharing a grid with the operations and creates “uncertainty and risks to local utilities and communities.”

If US miners quit, the environmental effects will just move to other countries where they'll fill the gap by buying more miners. The increased price argument is weak: short-term, lower demand will lead to lower prices, but long-term, lower demand will lead to lower production capacity. You could even argue it creates jobs for the local community. I'm curious what "risks" there are for local communities: is mining Bitcoin worse than charging an electric car?

kryptqnick

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If it's currently a proposal, what is the chance that it will be approved?
Also, I thought the US was going to conduct research on environmental impact of mining and then make decisions. And, once again, I feel like it's fair to look at environmental impact of all big spenders of energy, but not fair to focus on miners specifically. It's fair to tax big spenders of electricity that comes from bad sources, but not fair to tax all big spenders, regardless of their sources of energy. I haven't read the full proposal, but from the article, it seems a bit insensitive and not nuanced enough.

Lucius

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Quote from: pooya87 on March 11, 2023, 04:37:51 AM

I'm not so sure about that. According to some sources electrical theft is actually huge in United States, for example Pepco claims it is third largest form of theft in United States while other statistics suggest that annually about $6 billion is "lost" to theft which is roughly 40 billion kilowatthours. [1][2]. It is massive and it is staying off the radar.

People have always stolen electricity and there is no doubt that they continue to do so, but the sources you mentioned claim that electricity worth about $96 billion is stolen annually, and only $6 billion of that is in the US. Of course, this is also a large amount, but it seems to me that most of this theft goes to small consumers who use cheap tricks like what was described in Mexico (pequeño diablos or 'little devils.'). Given that there are millions of legal and illegal immigrants from Central and South America living in the US, I have no doubt that they brought with them their own methods of getting free electricity.

Someone who would like to have a serious mining farm in the US and steal electricity would probably be discovered very quickly, because you can't just hide that amount of energy. This is also confirmed by one of your sources where they say literally :

Quote

Meanwhile the issue of theft and fraud leaves utility managers with a powerless feeling in their ability to prevent or confront the issue. However, this trend is rapidly changing. Utilities now have many tools to reign in losses and detect unauthorized theft and fraud before it creates a significant drain on resources and company revenue. Many of these tools are provided through the installation of AMI and the additional visibility of the low-voltage grid that these systems provide.

BALIK

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Quote from: jaberwock on March 11, 2023, 04:51:33 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on March 09, 2023, 10:16:41 PM

I speculated about this before but I was called an antagonizer and a fud spreader. However, it is here. The Biden administration is pushing out bitcoin mining by making it more difficult to make profit through raising their taxes. They cannot do a blanket ban similar to the Chinese way because America's government structure is less centralized than China's government structure.

On account of this, I speculate that there is a chance that illegal mining and stealing of electrcity might rise in America. Is there a chance that American gangs and cartels might be interested in mining internet money?

I have to say this isn't really that much of a big deal considering that it is just tax, and it shouldn't really bother the whole bitcoin world. This is just a sub section of the whole community, we are talking about not all Americans here neither, we are talking about just the miners of America.

When you think about it that way, it isn't that much in the general population of crypto and that is why I wouldn't bet that this would have an impact on bitcoin. Obviously if the market wants to overreact on things, they can, I feel like market keeps on overreacting to many things and this could be one of them and I would understand that, but that's about it, normally it shouldn't be an issue at all.

Although this is just a proposal and has not been approved, it will not affect anything, but if it is approved, it will also significantly affect bitcoin as well as the market. Once they can go up to 30%, they can adjust higher in the future, such as 50%, and most likely other countries will follow the US government, and it will become a serious problem for us. Don't take taxes lightly, they don't want to ban bitcoin anymore because they see the benefit of taxing us.

jaberwock

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on March 09, 2023, 10:16:41 PM

I speculated about this before but I was called an antagonizer and a fud spreader. However, it is here. The Biden administration is pushing out bitcoin mining by making it more difficult to make profit through raising their taxes. They cannot do a blanket ban similar to the Chinese way because America's government structure is less centralized than China's government structure.

On account of this, I speculate that there is a chance that illegal mining and stealing of electrcity might rise in America. Is there a chance that American gangs and cartels might be interested in mining internet money?

I have to say this isn't really that much of a big deal considering that it is just tax, and it shouldn't really bother the whole bitcoin world. This is just a sub section of the whole community, we are talking about not all Americans here neither, we are talking about just the miners of America.

When you think about it that way, it isn't that much in the general population of crypto and that is why I wouldn't bet that this would have an impact on bitcoin. Obviously if the market wants to overreact on things, they can, I feel like market keeps on overreacting to many things and this could be one of them and I would understand that, but that's about it, normally it shouldn't be an issue at all.

pooya87

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Quote from: pawanjain on March 10, 2023, 09:25:26 AM

Quote from: mk4 on March 09, 2023, 10:46:58 PM

From 10% to 30%. A huge ass jump that I don't think there's any reason for mining companies to stay in the United States. What's probably going to be left is the home miners who may or may not declare their mining operations.

I guess India was better at this by straightly imposing a 30% tax on crypto income directly.
So we basically have to pay 30% from our profits on crypto trading to the government.
I know thats a huge cut from our profits but at least we didn't go from 10% to 30% . Lol .
Still, it at least makes crypto trading legal in India (for the time being).

I'm not a "tax expert" but I think that is only slightly higher than what is paid elsewhere. The tax on the profit from cryptocurrency trading should be categorized under "Capital Gains tax" and that usually is around 20% in most countries but can go up as high as 30%.

Quote from: Lucius on March 10, 2023, 09:51:04 AM

US. It's not some third-class country where you can steal large amounts of electricity and stay off the radar long enough to make a profit.

I'm not so sure about that. According to some sources electrical theft is actually huge in United States, for example Pepco claims it is third largest form of theft in United States while other statistics suggest that annually about $6 billion is "lost" to theft which is roughly 40 billion kilowatthours. [1][2]. It is massive and it is staying off the radar.

franky1

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Quote from: mk4 on March 09, 2023, 10:46:58 PM

From 10% to 30%. A huge ass jump that I don't think there's any reason for mining companies to stay in the United States. What's probably going to be left is the home miners who may or may not declare their mining operations.

us industrial rates (lowest 15, highest3)
lowest (cents)
New Mexico 5.70 (+30% tax=7.41)
Iowa 5.89
Idaho 6.03
North Dakota 6.72
Tennessee 6.84
Nebraska 7.00
West Virginia 7.05
Washington 7.07
Oklahoma 7.15
West North Central 7.33
Mississippi 7.33
Ohio 7.35
Texas 7.37
West South Central 7.38
Wyoming 7.40

highest(cents)
Rhode Island 20.99
Pacific Noncontiguous 33.35
Hawaii 39.78

mining in the 34 states not listed will move to: new mexico/iowa/idaho
dont expect anyone to mine in hawaii

Hispo

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on March 09, 2023, 10:16:41 PM

I speculated about this before but I was called an antagonizer and a fud spreader. However, it is here. The Biden administration is pushing out bitcoin mining by making it more difficult to make profit through raising their taxes. They cannot do a blanket ban similar to the Chinese way because America's government structure is less centralized than China's government structure.

On account of this, I speculate that there is a chance that illegal mining and stealing of electrcity might rise in America. Is there a chance that American gangs and cartels might be interested in mining internet money?

United States crypto miners could eventually be subject to a 30% tax on electricity costs under a budget proposal by President Joe Biden aimed to “reduce mining activity.”

Read in full https://cointelegraph.com/news/biden-budget-proposes-30-tax-on-crypto-mining-electricity-usage

I don't think the United States will see a problem with electricity theft whatsoever, since I assume those crimes are taken very seriously there and are a felony. If cartels and other organized crime syndicates wanted to profit off Bitcoin mining, it would be more logical for them to move their mining equipment to countries where electricity is cheaper and corruption is higher, so they can keep authorities in their payroll.

On the political side of this news, if Mr.Biden is expecting to benefit the United States this is proposal, he would be wrong, this sounds like something intended to discourage Bitcoin in USA, going along with the development of CBDCs.

Gyfts

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Quote from: SquirrelJulietGarden on March 10, 2023, 12:31:52 AM

I really believe that there will be no completely ban on Bitcoin or cryptocurrency.

Questions regarding an outright ban aren't the right question to ask. Biden and the other democrats don't particularly care to ban Bitcoin because they wouldn't want to lose the opportunity to gain tax revenue. If they can curtail Bitcoin growth and simultaneously tax existing mining operations, then they're perfectly content. The Biden administration has proposed regulation efforts before, this isn't anything new. I've long said that Bitcoin bans aren't feasible for most governments, rather creating convoluted regulatory frameworks around the entire crypto space would be effective enough to drive away activity on top of the excessive taxes.

Keep in mind, the proposed tax is only enforceable at the federal level. So it's possible for some of the more liberal states to introduce additional taxes that compound the tax rate the Biden administration is proposing. All this is coming from a crowd that couldn't define "Bitcoin" to begin with.

thecodebear

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Quote from: Haunebu on March 10, 2023, 10:15:26 AM

I find it funny seeing so many people think that this has already become a law already. There's a huge difference between proposal and law. Crazy crypto related proposals are suggested all the time, but very few become laws.

This particular proposal sounds like one of those proposals which will get swept under the rug pretty quickly since US senators stand to lose more thanks to it in the long-term.

Stop jumping to conclusions and think for a second. Just my 2 cents.

I agree I don't think this will actually be included in the budget when congress writes their budget. Still it just goes to show the level of misinformation around Bitcoin mining when even the President of the US is proposing essentially an attack on Bitcoin mining for environmental reasons, when Bitcoin mining is in fact one of the most important things that will help make the energy infrastructure of the world greener and stronger and more efficient in the coming decades.

It just shows how DESPERATELY we need knowledgeable people educating politicians about Bitcoin and we need politicians willing to be educated on the topic and not just reading and believing negative misinformation headlines. I know crypto companies are trying to educate politicians about the value of Bitcoin, but it doesn't seem like a whole lot is being done to try to educate them on why Bitcoin mining is in fact great for society and the environment (though probably because very few people even understand this in the Bitcoin community).

I just hope there's no ridiculous tyrannical action taken against Bitcoin mining by the US in the coming few years before the benefits of both Bitcoin and mining start to permeate more broadly and especially among politicians.

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Quote from: Dave1 on March 10, 2023, 07:15:11 AM

Quote from: worle1bm on March 10, 2023, 01:42:46 AM

The governments have nothing to look after environmental issues and they only put forward these excuses just to gain money through these tax implementations but 30% on mining operations is really high.They are directly targeting them with these manners but most of them will relocate to other favourable place where they won't have to pay off such high taxes meaning another loss for Biden government.

And it seems that Biden and his administration are trying to get rid of those miners but that huge tax toll on their shoulders and it really doesn't sound good as it affected the market very bad, now the price of bitcoin is below $20k when this news was released and everyone had it's own interpretation.

And I guess there's no other option, maybe shift to a more friendly countries to be able to continue mining.

I suspect governments are intent on joining forces against bitcoin. What if those miners, after moving to another country and they, are subject to high taxes or other regulations that hurt them? They can't move forever, it's too inconvenient and expensive.
China has banned mining companies and miners from moving to the US and if that continues in the future it will be a disaster for bitocin and miners.

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I find it funny seeing so many people think that this has already become a law already. There's a huge difference between proposal and law. Crazy crypto related proposals are suggested all the time, but very few become laws.

This particular proposal sounds like one of those proposals which will get swept under the rug pretty quickly since US senators stand to lose more thanks to it in the long-term.

Stop jumping to conclusions and think for a second. Just my 2 cents.

Topic: [NEWS] Biden budget proposes 30% tax on crypto mining electricity usage - page 2. (Read 498 times)