Nick Szabo's Remarks about Bitcoin XT

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: glub0x on September 16, 2015, 01:18:58 AM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 01:40:02 PM

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

well that's what you say ... It is clear to me that he thinks his techno solves several problems at the same time.
There is a reason why he used the abstract & introduction of his whitepaper NOT to speak about bailouts but small transactions. You might say he was wrong or the bailouts problem is more important ( which i agree ) but you won't change the fact that Satoshi's vision is also about a global payment system for casual transaction.

I think the monetary policy is a much more political problem whereas the small transaction is consensual, everybody wants to pay less fees. It is a much better introduction to keep everybody on board for the next 15 pages of his white paper.

When Bitcoin was just a tiny baby and hardly anyone used it, micro-tx were feasible. There was a thing called SatoshiDice, which used the blockchain as its payment rail for trivial gambling.

But then Bitcoin grew up and up and up. Bitcoin grew so big that SatoshiDice-type things didn't fit on its increasingly valuable/popular blockchain.

And now, with a multi-billion-dollar marketcap, technological maturity, and marketplace acceptance, Bitcoin's different aspects have been thrown into sharp relief and bifurcated in application.

That's why Szabo also uses the big-B/little-b (protocol/ecash) distinction. "Eventually" (perhaps Soon), micro-tx will return to BTC, after SC/LN makes them again feasible.

I hope explaining all this to you like you are five years old has helped you understand more.

Liquid71

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There is NO Freedom without Privacy

Quote from: Peter R on September 15, 2015, 08:29:27 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 15, 2015, 08:00:34 PM

Quote from: Peter R on September 15, 2015, 07:45:24 PM

Quote from: MarketNeutral on September 15, 2015, 07:42:47 PM

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

It was pretty cool at the Scaling Bitcoin reception to be able to pay for a glass of wine with Bitcoin.

I ordered at the same moment as another guy who was paying with Bitcoin. I paid cash and it took seconds to proceed. For dude's payment the barmaid had to call up "the bitcoin guy" and have him process the transaction. All of which took at least a couple more minutes.

I paid with Bitcoin on Friday night and with fiat on Saturday night. Funnily enough, Saturday night I tried to pay with a $20 and the bar tender went looking for change, couldn't find any, and ask me to pay with a card. She got the machine and while I was digging for a card I realized I had enough coins to make exact change. Anyways, the process was fairly cumbersome.

Nevertheless, you make a valid point: paying with Bitcoin is still unnecessarily slow and awkward. We need tap and pay!!

For instant Tx try this https://in.xapo.com/campaign/debit/

glub0x

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 01:40:02 PM

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

well that's what you say ... It is clear to me that he thinks his techno solves several problems at the same time.
There is a reason why he used the abstract & introduction of his whitepaper NOT to speak about bailouts but small transactions. You might say he was wrong or the bailouts problem is more important ( which i agree ) but you won't change the fact that Satoshi's vision is also about a global payment system for casual transaction.

I think the monetary policy is a much more political problem whereas the small transaction is consensual, everybody wants to pay less fees. It is a much better introduction to keep everybody on board for the next 15 pages of his white paper.

kazuki49

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yeah I think he is Satoshi.

hashman

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Quote from: Gleb Gamow on September 15, 2015, 08:36:15 PM

Quote from: Brad Harrison on September 15, 2015, 08:16:01 PM

I had goosebumps listening to his voice for the first time

Did you save some goosebumps for eight days from now when Jesus is supposedly making his comeback appearance, perhaps via a FOX interview?

He showed up in /reddit/darknetmarkets the other day a bit early.

Brad Harrison

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Quote from: Gleb Gamow on September 15, 2015, 08:36:15 PM

Quote from: Brad Harrison on September 15, 2015, 08:16:01 PM

I had goosebumps listening to his voice for the first time

Did you save some goosebumps for eight days from now when Jesus is supposedly making his comeback appearance, perhaps via a FOX interview?

Another end of the world happening?

Gleb Gamow

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Quote from: Brad Harrison on September 15, 2015, 08:16:01 PM

I had goosebumps listening to his voice for the first time

Did you save some goosebumps for eight days from now when Jesus is supposedly making his comeback appearance, perhaps via a FOX interview?

Peter R

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Activity: 1162

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Quote from: brg444 on September 15, 2015, 08:00:34 PM

Quote from: Peter R on September 15, 2015, 07:45:24 PM

Quote from: MarketNeutral on September 15, 2015, 07:42:47 PM

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

It was pretty cool at the Scaling Bitcoin reception to be able to pay for a glass of wine with Bitcoin.

I ordered at the same moment as another guy who was paying with Bitcoin. I paid cash and it took seconds to proceed. For dude's payment the barmaid had to call up "the bitcoin guy" and have him process the transaction. All of which took at least a couple more minutes.

I paid with Bitcoin on Friday night and with fiat on Saturday night. Funnily enough, Saturday night I tried to pay with a $20 and the bar tender went looking for change, couldn't find any, and ask me to pay with a card. She got the machine and while I was digging for a card I realized I had enough coins to make exact change. Anyways, the process was fairly cumbersome.

Nevertheless, you make a valid point: paying with Bitcoin is still unnecessarily slow and awkward. We need tap and pay!!

Brad Harrison

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Activity: 168

Merit: 100

I had goosebumps listening to his voice for the first time

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Peter R on September 15, 2015, 07:45:24 PM

Quote from: MarketNeutral on September 15, 2015, 07:42:47 PM

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

It was pretty cool at the Scaling Bitcoin reception to be able to pay for a glass of wine with Bitcoin.

Quote from: MarketNeutral on September 15, 2015, 07:42:47 PM

I suspect that many people who wish to purchase coffee with bitcoin are more interested in the novelty of the experience of using bitcoins to purchase something familiar. They're missing the big picture.

I ordered at the same moment as another guy who was paying with Bitcoin. I paid cash and it took seconds to proceed. For dude's payment the barmaid had to call up "the bitcoin guy" and have him process the transaction. All of which took at least a couple more minutes.

monsanto

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Activity: 1241

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..like bright metal on a sullen ground.

Was listening to some of the podcast again.

Stephanie Murphy:

Quote

Did you engage in conversations with Satoshi on the mailing list and like what were your impressions at that time?

Szabo:

Quote

It was interesting, I wasn't - since I - you know - it wasn't as novel to me as it was to other people at the time, so I didn't take as big an interest in it initially as some other people did.

Peter R

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Quote from: MarketNeutral on September 15, 2015, 07:42:47 PM

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

It was pretty cool at the Scaling Bitcoin reception to be able to pay for a glass of wine with Bitcoin.

MarketNeutral

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Activity: 434

Merit: 252

Quote from: CIYAM on September 15, 2015, 01:44:12 PM

Both Adam Back and Nick Szabo have stated the same thing that I have been trying to point out in that Bitcoin should be first aimed at things like the remittance market (which it should be able to kill the competition in).

Yet still we hear the rabble wanting to pay for coffee's with BTC when it has failed to even make an inroad into the most obvious market it should be dominating.

When virtually no-one is being paid in BTC why on earth do people think it is important to pay for a coffee in BTC?

My guess is that most of the people screaming to have BTC payments for coffees probably don't even have enough BTC to pay for a coffee!

Aye.
You stole the words right out of my mouth, especially with the case of that stubborn 'cup of coffee' that people are so eager to purchase with bitcoins.

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

I suspect that many people who wish to purchase coffee with bitcoin are more interested in the novelty of the experience of using bitcoins to purchase something familiar. They're missing the big picture.

Szabo sees the big picture that bitcoin's function as a fungible trustless remittance system is at the heart of its price and value. Dr. Adam Back furthers the potential of and provides agency to the bitcoin protocol with his brilliant work on confidential transactions and sidechains. Absent satoshi, I defer to the experience of Szabo and Back over the more recent upstarts.

monsanto

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..like bright metal on a sullen ground.

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 04:03:47 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 03:39:00 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 02:09:30 PM

Project much?

projecting

You keep accusing me of projecting, but never specify what is being projected. Roll Eyes

I guess you believe projection is some kind of devastating passive-aggressive critique, perhaps because you heard the term used in a Hollywood chick flick for a laugh line at some unpopular character's expense.

But as far as meaningless Freudian-Marxist psychobabble goes, projection accusations are bottom of the barrel.

As for "normative." Son, don't play with critical theory until you've got a decent (ie better than absolute beginner) grip on basic Leftist jargon. Cheesy

And don't forget to enjoy your sophomore year!

Who knew "project" and "normative" we're considered dem big compilicatable words Cheesy

. Here, I'll try to help you out. For example, someone who is desperate to impress people on bitcointalk might "project" that I was trying to impress them. Maybe just because they felt threatened by random words I used that they had trouble understanding. Hard to believe, but they might even get angry and construct multiple rambling posts on under some bizarre delusion that we were in an argument about what the blocksize should be. Tongue

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 03:39:00 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 02:09:30 PM

Project much?

projecting

You keep accusing me of projecting, but never specify what is being projected. Roll Eyes

I guess you believe projection is some kind of devastating passive-aggressive critique, perhaps because you heard the term used in a Hollywood chick flick for a laugh line at some unpopular character's expense.

But as far as meaningless Freudian-Marxist psychobabble goes, projection accusations are bottom of the barrel.

As for "normative." Son, don't play with critical theory until you've got a decent (ie better than absolute beginner) grip on basic Leftist jargon. Cheesy

And don't forget to enjoy your sophomore year!

monsanto

legendary

Activity: 1241

Merit: 1005

..like bright metal on a sullen ground.

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 02:23:46 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 02:09:30 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 01:40:02 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 12:34:35 PM

Quote from: glub0x on September 15, 2015, 05:12:07 AM

Quote from: _smudger_ on September 15, 2015, 04:50:28 AM

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. Huh

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

Yes, I've used that quote several times. Thanks for reminding us Satoshi spoke of micropayments "eventually."

If you use altcoins (ie alternative forks of Bitcoin) you can already make all the micropayments you can afford! Wow, isn't that amazing?

It's barely been 5 years since Aug. 5, 2010; we're on the very early end of his estimate. I'm sure we'll have sidechains, payment channels, and more in <10 years. Have patience. Or keep accusing me of projection, if that helps your tiny brain pass the time.

Szabo uses the same big-B vs little-b bifurcation I do. If you can't follow the logic, I'm very sorry. It's been explained to exhaustion on several occasions.

I forgive you. Now you've moved on to projecting a strawman argument you can fight against. Take some deep breaths and calm down and you might see I never made a normative argument. But keep battling those illusions it's fun to watch. Grin

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 02:09:30 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 01:40:02 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 12:34:35 PM

Quote from: glub0x on September 15, 2015, 05:12:07 AM

Quote from: _smudger_ on September 15, 2015, 04:50:28 AM

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. Huh

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

Yes, I've used that quote several times. Thanks for reminding us Satoshi spoke of micropayments "eventually."

If you use altcoins (ie alternative forks of Bitcoin) you can already make all the micropayments you can afford! Wow, isn't that amazing?

It's barely been 5 years since Aug. 5, 2010; we're on the very early end of his estimate. I'm sure we'll have sidechains, payment channels, and more in <10 years. Have patience. Or keep accusing me of projection, if that helps your tiny brain pass the time.

Szabo uses the same big-B vs little-b bifurcation I do. If you can't follow the logic, I'm very sorry. It's been explained to exhaustion on several occasions.

monsanto

legendary

Activity: 1241

Merit: 1005

..like bright metal on a sullen ground.

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 15, 2015, 01:40:02 PM

Quote from: monsanto on September 15, 2015, 12:34:35 PM

Quote from: glub0x on September 15, 2015, 05:12:07 AM

Quote from: _smudger_ on September 15, 2015, 04:50:28 AM

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. Huh

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: CIYAM on September 15, 2015, 01:44:12 PM

Both Adam Back and Nick Szabo have stated the same thing that I have been trying to point out in that Bitcoin should be first aimed at things like the remittance market (which it should be able to kill the competition in).

Yet still we hear the rabble wanting to pay for coffee's with BTC when it has failed to even make an inroad into the most obvious market it should be dominating.

When virtually no-one is being paid in BTC why on earth do people think it is important to pay for a coffee in BTC?

My guess is that most of the people screaming to have BTC payments for coffees probably don't even have enough BTC to pay for a coffee!

BTC's UX is still a non-starter for most migrant workers. They don't have the free time, being very busy providing for their families back home and all.

The unbanked who would benefit the most are the least able to climb BTC's steep learning curve.

The wealthier ones have banking services and don't GAF. And (rich or poor) Grandma can't use BTC to buy fertilizer back on the farm.

There are other edge cases for early adoption. Besides the traditional sex/drugs/gambling, interesting attempts to close the loop from the bottom up are in the works.

Quote

We want change. And we’re getting it. We are seeing amazing innovation from the farmers of the world and when you bring bitcoin into the picture you have some real potential for a major civilization upgrade. This week, this ‘farmah from down undah‘ is helping the masses get their first Bitcoin. The more local businesses accepting Bitcoin means it is easier for locals to spend their Bitcoin with other locals, and it makes our region an attractive tourist destination for early adopters of this digital currency.

http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-17/

Hookers, cocaine, poker....agriculture?!? Cheesy

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Kprawn on September 15, 2015, 01:06:57 PM

The funny thing is, Szabo created the first type of Bitcoin network in 1998 with Bit Gold and nobody really saw his vision or took him seriously. They were seen as a bunch of geeks

having some Libertarian ideas and now when you think about this.... They were the pioneers and the people with the vision. If I had to choose a Bitcoin CEO, he would get my vote

any day. You can just feel the frustration in his voice... It must be hard on him to see this protocol being picked apart by the vultures. Angry

{Banks}

Libertarian geek here. I took Bit Gold seriously.

I'm happy to see this protocol being picked apart by the vulture banks. Bitcoin will either make them honest, or destroy them in the attempt. Cool

Quote from: davout on March 09, 2015, 09:33:32 AM

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain". -davout

Topic: Nick Szabo's Remarks about Bitcoin XT (Read 2541 times)