No longer tin-hat conspiracy theory: FEMA Camps Everywhere - page 2.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 02:03:00 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 12:27:36 PM

They accept it, because of 9/11. If some terrorists need to be liquidated to prevent another 9/11, then that is ok in my book.

As long as one has reasonable assurance the target in question is indeed a dangerous terrorist, few people will disagree with that. But when its sufficient that some politician can just say he is a dangerous terrorist, with no oversight, no burden of proof, then it becomes a completely different matter. Thats the sort of power that defines a tyranny.

Ok, so where is the proof that politicians can pull the trigger by just saying the word? And what politicians are we talking about here? I would certainly trust the president (whoever it was at the time) to be able to make the right decision, but I'm betting that some random congressman couldn't just issue a kill order on a person.

So, give more info if it is true that a politician can kill people without consequence. Who can do this? And what are the steps to accomplish it? What checks and balances are in place? Who all would have to be "in on it"?

Quote

Even if some of them turn up to be innocent. I would rather one innocent person die than thousands.

Innocent people die all the time already, you really think those predator attacks shoot arrows rather than missiles that kill anyone in the area? Thats not the question however, the question is, is any of it making you any safer? My guess is: nope, quite on the contrary.

And why would you guess that? Just a hunch? Another conspiracy theory, maybe?

If you have proof that killing a suspected terrorist outside of the legal system would cause us to be less safe, then please, do share. Otherwise, I will hold by the belief that a suspected terrorist dead = a suspected terrorist who can't terrorize.

P4man

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 12:27:36 PM

They accept it, because of 9/11. If some terrorists need to be liquidated to prevent another 9/11, then that is ok in my book.

As long as one has reasonable assurance the target in question is indeed a dangerous terrorist, few people will disagree with that. But when its sufficient that some politician can just say he is a dangerous terrorist, with no oversight, no burden of proof, then it becomes a completely different matter. Thats the sort of power that defines a tyranny.

Quote

Even if some of them turn up to be innocent. I would rather one innocent person die than thousands.

Innocent people die all the time already, you really think those predator attacks shoot arrows rather than missiles that kill anyone in the area? Thats not the question however, the question is, is any of it making you any safer? My guess is: nope, quite on the contrary.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: westkybitcoins on December 13, 2011, 12:40:13 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 07:21:20 AM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 04:08:03 AM

Well, they're all afraid that they'll start detaining non-criminals for non-crimes. Like, just being anti-government or something. I don't see that happening without a huge uproar about it from the people.

Its a gradual process, aka a slippery slope and you are sliding VERY fast. As a non US citizen it really frightens me to see you heading down the road to tyranny. Do read up on the rise of Nazis in the 30s, there are striking parallels.
What is happening in the US now on a regular basis would have been unthinkable and caused huge outcries only a few decades ago and likewise what you consider unthinkable now may well cause an equally deafening silence in a few years particularly if the country is in a bigger turmoil.

Already US citizens seem to accept their president can liquidate US citizens without due process by just saying he is a terrorist (and with virtually no evidence to support it). Other top politicians called Julian Assange a "terrorist". That guy that was jailed for coining his own money, that was labeled an act of terrorism. Software piracy and hacking is being linked to terrorism. How long until they throw people like that in Gitmo, or a drone attack becomes acceptable? Unthinkable? The legal basis is already in place. If you dont stand up to it now, dont be surprised when it actually happens.

They accept it, because of 9/11. If some terrorists need to be liquidated to prevent another 9/11, then that is ok in my book. Even if some of them turn up to be innocent. I would rather one innocent person die than thousands.

If it makes you feel any better, I am a vast minority in that viewpoint. In fact, I do not know of anyone who shares it with me. So, most of America is NOT ok with these things. I just think it makes sense to kill one person (or a handful of people) in order to save many. I do not believe the judicial system always has enough proof or power to prevent a catastrophic event, and that is why I believe the rules need to be broken from time to time.

Well, I'm not sure if you'll view this as a good or bad thing, but I know plenty of people who agree with you.

Sure, most of them would never actually verbalize the idea of sacrificing the few to save many, even to themselves, but their reactions and preferences make it crystal clear.

*shrug*

It's what makes sense to me. I could be wrong, could be right, and only the future knows. I do understand that powers can be abused, and that we should be careful, but I am willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt on that front. Until I see serious instances of abuse, I'm not going to call them out on it. And one instance of abuse doesn't necessarily mean the whole thing should be abolished, either. It just means there is a problem in the system somewhere to be fixed. It is when there is consistent, purposeful, and blatant abuse that the whole thing should be stopped. And that hasn't happened.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 07:21:20 AM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 04:08:03 AM

Well, they're all afraid that they'll start detaining non-criminals for non-crimes. Like, just being anti-government or something. I don't see that happening without a huge uproar about it from the people.

Its a gradual process, aka a slippery slope and you are sliding VERY fast. As a non US citizen it really frightens me to see you heading down the road to tyranny. Do read up on the rise of Nazis in the 30s, there are striking parallels.
What is happening in the US now on a regular basis would have been unthinkable and caused huge outcries only a few decades ago and likewise what you consider unthinkable now may well cause an equally deafening silence in a few years particularly if the country is in a bigger turmoil.

Already US citizens seem to accept their president can liquidate US citizens without due process by just saying he is a terrorist (and with virtually no evidence to support it). Other top politicians called Julian Assange a "terrorist". That guy that was jailed for coining his own money, that was labeled an act of terrorism. Software piracy and hacking is being linked to terrorism. How long until they throw people like that in Gitmo, or a drone attack becomes acceptable? Unthinkable? The legal basis is already in place. If you dont stand up to it now, dont be surprised when it actually happens.

They accept it, because of 9/11. If some terrorists need to be liquidated to prevent another 9/11, then that is ok in my book. Even if some of them turn up to be innocent. I would rather one innocent person die than thousands.

If it makes you feel any better, I am a vast minority in that viewpoint. In fact, I do not know of anyone who shares it with me. So, most of America is NOT ok with these things. I just think it makes sense to kill one person (or a handful of people) in order to save many. I do not believe the judicial system always has enough proof or power to prevent a catastrophic event, and that is why I believe the rules need to be broken from time to time.

Well, I'm not sure if you'll view this as a good or bad thing, but I know plenty of people who agree with you.

Sure, most of them would never actually verbalize the idea of sacrificing the few to save many, even to themselves, but their reactions and preferences make it crystal clear.

SgtSpike

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Activity: 1400

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Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 07:21:20 AM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 04:08:03 AM

Well, they're all afraid that they'll start detaining non-criminals for non-crimes. Like, just being anti-government or something. I don't see that happening without a huge uproar about it from the people.

Its a gradual process, aka a slippery slope and you are sliding VERY fast. As a non US citizen it really frightens me to see you heading down the road to tyranny. Do read up on the rise of Nazis in the 30s, there are striking parallels.
What is happening in the US now on a regular basis would have been unthinkable and caused huge outcries only a few decades ago and likewise what you consider unthinkable now may well cause an equally deafening silence in a few years particularly if the country is in a bigger turmoil.

Already US citizens seem to accept their president can liquidate US citizens without due process by just saying he is a terrorist (and with virtually no evidence to support it). Other top politicians called Julian Assange a "terrorist". That guy that was jailed for coining his own money, that was labeled an act of terrorism. Software piracy and hacking is being linked to terrorism. How long until they throw people like that in Gitmo, or a drone attack becomes acceptable? Unthinkable? The legal basis is already in place. If you dont stand up to it now, dont be surprised when it actually happens.

They accept it, because of 9/11. If some terrorists need to be liquidated to prevent another 9/11, then that is ok in my book. Even if some of them turn up to be innocent. I would rather one innocent person die than thousands.

If it makes you feel any better, I am a vast minority in that viewpoint. In fact, I do not know of anyone who shares it with me. So, most of America is NOT ok with these things. I just think it makes sense to kill one person (or a handful of people) in order to save many. I do not believe the judicial system always has enough proof or power to prevent a catastrophic event, and that is why I believe the rules need to be broken from time to time.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: fellowtraveler on December 13, 2011, 03:58:05 AM

I'm not afraid of the detention camps popping up all over my country. After all, I'm not a criminal. I've got nothing to hide. If you are against them, then you are probably a criminal.

Just as an aside, you probably are a criminal. The average US citizen commits three felonies a day, without meaning to. Since none of us has time to go through the thousands of pages and rules and laws that pertain to us, that fact is often not discovered until after you've ticked off some bureaucrat, cop or nosy neighbor and they decide to ruin your life with a single anonymous phone call, trumped up charge or little rule they pull out just for spite.

There's a reason the US has the largest "criminal" population in the world. No, that's not per capita, it's the largest in terms of raw numbers.

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 03:29:06 AM

Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 02:33:28 AM

Quote

Again, I am not conspiracy-theorist enough to think that this would happen. At least in my lifetime. Call me naive, or stupid, or whatever, but I prefer to not live a life of paranoia.

Im not asking you to stand up against those alleged camps. I have no idea if thats true or not, or what its purposes is, but its irrelevant. What is relevant is the power your government has assumed that allows it -among so many other things- to use them. That is, to detain you without charges, without trial, without recourse. Thats what I would fight tooth and nail if I lived in the US. Not because I expect massive abuse by the current administration, but by a future one. And by then it will too late. From the patriot act to this National Defense Authorization Act and everything in between, almost all pieces are in place for a fascist dictatorship. You dont have to be paranoid to fear that.

I'm indifferent. I actually agree with those things - I think the world is too politically-correct, and that sometimes, rules need to be broken. I would rather they detain a person without charges than another 9/11 happen. I do understand and appreciate your fears as well though - I just feel that we are still so far away from something like that happening that I have no need to speak out against it.

Wow.

*Turns to the rest of the world.*

NOW do you see why things are the way they are here? My suggestion to the rest of you: stay far, far away from this country until it stops reacting in fear and comes to its senses.

P4man

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 13, 2011, 04:08:03 AM

Well, they're all afraid that they'll start detaining non-criminals for non-crimes. Like, just being anti-government or something. I don't see that happening without a huge uproar about it from the people.

Its a gradual process, aka a slippery slope and you are sliding VERY fast. As a non US citizen it really frightens me to see you heading down the road to tyranny. Do read up on the rise of Nazis in the 30s, there are striking parallels.
What is happening in the US now on a regular basis would have been unthinkable and caused huge outcries only a few decades ago and likewise what you consider unthinkable now may well cause an equally deafening silence in a few years particularly if the country is in a bigger turmoil.

Already US citizens seem to accept their president can liquidate US citizens without due process by just saying he is a terrorist (and with virtually no evidence to support it). Other top politicians called Julian Assange a "terrorist". That guy that was jailed for coining his own money, that was labeled an act of terrorism. Software piracy and hacking is being linked to terrorism. How long until they throw people like that in Gitmo, or a drone attack becomes acceptable? Unthinkable? The legal basis is already in place. If you dont stand up to it now, dont be surprised when it actually happens.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: fellowtraveler on December 13, 2011, 03:58:05 AM

I'm not afraid of the detention camps popping up all over my country. After all, I'm not a criminal. I've got nothing to hide. If you are against them, then you are probably a criminal.

Well, they're all afraid that they'll start detaining non-criminals for non-crimes. Like, just being anti-government or something. I don't see that happening without a huge uproar about it from the people.

fellowtraveler

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I'm not afraid of the detention camps popping up all over my country. After all, I'm not a criminal. I've got nothing to hide. If you are against them, then you are probably a criminal.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: P4man on December 13, 2011, 02:33:28 AM

Quote

Again, I am not conspiracy-theorist enough to think that this would happen. At least in my lifetime. Call me naive, or stupid, or whatever, but I prefer to not live a life of paranoia.

Im not asking you to stand up against those alleged camps. I have no idea if thats true or not, or what its purposes is, but its irrelevant. What is relevant is the power your government has assumed that allows it -among so many other things- to use them. That is, to detain you without charges, without trial, without recourse. Thats what I would fight tooth and nail if I lived in the US. Not because I expect massive abuse by the current administration, but by a future one. And by then it will too late. From the patriot act to this National Defense Authorization Act and everything in between, almost all pieces are in place for a fascist dictatorship. You dont have to be paranoid to fear that.

I'm indifferent. I actually agree with those things - I think the world is too politically-correct, and that sometimes, rules need to be broken. I would rather they detain a person without charges than another 9/11 happen. I do understand and appreciate your fears as well though - I just feel that we are still so far away from something like that happening that I have no need to speak out against it.

P4man

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Activity: 518

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Quote

Again, I am not conspiracy-theorist enough to think that this would happen. At least in my lifetime. Call me naive, or stupid, or whatever, but I prefer to not live a life of paranoia.

Im not asking you to stand up against those alleged camps. I have no idea if thats true or not, or what its purposes is, but its irrelevant. What is relevant is the power your government has assumed that allows it -among so many other things- to use them. That is, to detain you without charges, without trial, without recourse. Thats what I would fight tooth and nail if I lived in the US. Not because I expect massive abuse by the current administration, but by a future one. And by then it will too late. From the patriot act to this National Defense Authorization Act and everything in between, almost all pieces are in place for a fascist dictatorship. You dont have to be paranoid to fear that.

Vanderbleek

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Why would they put terrorists into prison camps on US soil? We have perfectly good jails overseas for that.

I for one think that this is the result of Katrina. You have to remember, the government is kinda slow -- if you're looking for a cause for current actions, you need to look a few years back.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: P4man on December 12, 2011, 05:58:44 PM

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Again, I am not conspiracy-theorist enough to think that this would happen. At least in my lifetime. Call me naive, or stupid, or whatever, but I prefer to not live a life of paranoia.

Quote from: Harvey on December 12, 2011, 06:02:48 PM

I've already seen government IPs in my Gmail inbox. I know I am on terrorist watch lists. I am leaving the country for a reason. Mind you, I am not remotely violent.

Sorry to hear.

Harvey

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I've already seen government IPs in my Gmail inbox. I know I am on terrorist watch lists. I am leaving the country for a reason. Mind you, I am not remotely violent. Anarchistic? Unremorsefully.

P4man

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First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

SgtSpike

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Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: P4man on December 12, 2011, 05:24:02 PM

Who needs camps anyway, when your president can already assassinate you at will and the military detain you forever with no trial or anything?

Quote

I'll protest it when it happens, and if it happens to people who aren't terrorists. Until then, it's just a conspiracy theory to me.

By then, it would be too late. Now is the time to protest while you still can.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7688&updaterx=2011-12-09+13%3A56%3A19

I'm not worried. The president has no reason to assassinate me, or detain me without trail. I am not a suspicious person.

P4man

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Who needs camps anyway, when your president can already assassinate you at will and the military detain you forever with no trial or anything?

Quote

I'll protest it when it happens, and if it happens to people who aren't terrorists. Until then, it's just a conspiracy theory to me.

By then, it would be too late. Now is the time to protest while you still can.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7688&updaterx=2011-12-09+13%3A56%3A19

FreeMoney

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Strength in numbers

is there a plain list of addresses for these things somewhere?

westkybitcoins

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 12, 2011, 01:09:12 PM

Still a tin-hat conspiracy theory.

So what if FEMA is preparing "camps"? What do all these conspiracy theorists think is going to happen? The military suddenly puts everyone in the nation into camps? Yeah, right.

Hmm.

Topic: No longer tin-hat conspiracy theory: FEMA Camps Everywhere - page 2. (Read 5643 times)