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Topic: Non-KYC BTC to fiat process (Read 379 times)

legendary
Activity: 1694
Merit: 4213
January 25, 2023, 09:05:55 AM
#37
banks in Europe are subject to the guidelines from the national banks, even if there is european regulation trying to regulate crypto.

But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).

And it even does not matter how big they are, revolut was one of those that closed my account and had accounts with other neobanks from different countries, all ended up closing my account as soon as I told them I sold crypto.

bla bla bla, financing terrorism, AML, bla bla bla
they are all the same
Banks in most countries do not like obscure P2P transfers. But even if you do not have the opportunity to change to fiat with private intermediaries, you can open an account in many payment systems and banks. It is likely that 1 P2P transfer per month or two months will not be a red flag for your bank.
sr. member
Activity: 281
Merit: 408
January 24, 2023, 11:06:00 PM
#36
From what i've read EU is more strict than the US when it comes to proof of ownership or however they call it. Point is, in the US, i've read you can pretty much safely deposit your stuff in your bank account and as long as it's not some big amount you are good to go if you just pay your taxes.

Now in the EU it may raise alarms considering the funds come from a crypto exchange.
To be honest I don't know what to tell you. The problem with being honest with the government in cases like this is, you don't really know how they will react.
Who is to say that in X years your funds aren't worth enough to move to some tax haven where they will not make questions and just park the funds there. But if that is not an option and you need the funds now, you have no other options. Get an account in Bitpanda or Kraken or some other EU friendly exchange, liquidate the funds (as little as possible), pay taxes and hope there is no further questions asked.
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2043
January 21, 2023, 09:54:47 AM
#35
I think they usually ask for another bank account/IBAN to send you your balance via SEPA, before they close your account.

Unless they deem your money is a product of "illegal" activities (whatever that means)... in that case, they will seize it.

A bank will usually not straight up seize your money without a court order, that'd be too much off a legal headache. Simply closing the account is less of an effort and thus cheaper.

If you fail to provide another bank account they will send your money to an escrow account though, in which case the legal headaches to get your money becomes all yours.
sr. member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 284
January 21, 2023, 08:19:26 AM
#34
But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).
Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.

this happened about 2 years ago,
amounts received in revolut were always below 500 eur, I happened to have a very good month winning sports bets and was cashing the crypto out by p2p bank transfers.

no warning from the bank, they simply notified they were closing my account.
Could not see any other reason

Did you get your money back somehow?

yes, I never used it as main account, only few euros there when they informed me about the closure
I think they usually ask for another bank account/IBAN to send you your balance via SEPA, before they close your account.

Unless they deem your money is a product of "illegal" activities (whatever that means)... in that case, they will seize it.
member
Activity: 205
Merit: 22
January 21, 2023, 07:56:46 AM
#33
But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).
Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.

this happened about 2 years ago,
amounts received in revolut were always below 500 eur, I happened to have a very good month winning sports bets and was cashing the crypto out by p2p bank transfers.

no warning from the bank, they simply notified they were closing my account.
Could not see any other reason

Did you get your money back somehow?

yes, I never used it as main account, only few euros there when they informed me about the closure
sr. member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 284
January 21, 2023, 06:27:20 AM
#32
But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).
Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.

this happened about 2 years ago,
amounts received in revolut were always below 500 eur, I happened to have a very good month winning sports bets and was cashing the crypto out by p2p bank transfers.

no warning from the bank, they simply notified they were closing my account.
Could not see any other reason

Did you get your money back somehow?
member
Activity: 205
Merit: 22
January 21, 2023, 06:12:55 AM
#31
But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).
Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.

this happened about 2 years ago,
amounts received in revolut were always below 500 eur, I happened to have a very good month winning sports bets and was cashing the crypto out by p2p bank transfers.

no warning from the bank, they simply notified they were closing my account.
Could not see any other reason
sr. member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 284
January 20, 2023, 05:22:38 PM
#30
You could use a crypto debit card (Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc.) or p2p local exchange to withdraw and then there are ATM where you can deposit funds to your account with no questions asked. If you keep the amounts reasonable, that won't be a red flag for your bank.
A Binance Card seems the best option to pay your fiat bills. You don't even need to convert to fiat, just send some BTC and keep it in that form.

No one will care, even the card's limit (8700 EUR per day) is lower than the 10k limit and there's no way your bills are that high either way. Wink

Stick with Binance and maybe Revolut, avoid traditional banks.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 6415
Farewell, Leo
January 20, 2023, 03:43:47 PM
#29
But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).
Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.
member
Activity: 205
Merit: 22
January 20, 2023, 03:25:51 PM
#28
banks in Europe are subject to the guidelines from the national banks, even if there is european regulation trying to regulate crypto.

But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).

And it even does not matter how big they are, revolut was one of those that closed my account and had accounts with other neobanks from different countries, all ended up closing my account as soon as I told them I sold crypto.

bla bla bla, financing terrorism, AML, bla bla bla
they are all the same

legendary
Activity: 3262
Merit: 16303
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 12, 2023, 04:00:52 AM
#27
I bought almost all of them with cash from an ATM at < 1000e.
Then that's what you'll tell your bank. You weren't required to keep an administration, so you didn't keep any records. You're not the only one who did this.

I reside in a country where there is a high chance that no capital gains taxes are charged, however I'm not trying to evade taxes or anything of the sort.
There's no capital gains tax, but there's a capital tax. Assuming you're above the threshold, you're required to report your wealth and pay taxes annually. If you haven't paid yet, they'll still charge you once you report it (and if they find out on their own it's going to be more expensive).

I reside in the Netherlands.
Me too.
KYC isn't the thing to worry about: your bank already knows who you are. I think it's actually worse if you use a shady non-KYC exchange to transfer 30k to your bank account. I'd start with Bitonic, the oldest Bitcoin broker in the country.



Using a mixer in between makes it harder to prove capital gains, it would help if you find back all original addresses so you can prove where you started. The reason to prove wealth came from Bitcoin's price increase, is because the alternative would be it came from crime. If you suddenly show up with a million euro in Bitcoin, you're going to need a good story to explain it.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1240
January 10, 2023, 06:42:45 PM
#26
You can easily convert upto 100,000 euros worth of bitcoin per annum via p2p exchanges like LBC. And you no need to worry about the proof of income as long as you keep the trade limit under less than thousand euros for a trade.

You can pass level 2 verification with your national ID KYC, and find the reliable traders with high trust score and trading volume.

Let's say you convert about 900 euros per trade. Apart from being a pain in the ass, transferring 900 euros 111 times to your account in the same fiscal year can set off alarm bells as well. It would set them off automatically if you transfer the $100k in one but the sum of very small amounts passing a threshold, depending on the country, also sets them off.
You are right if these transfers are to one bank account. Above I wrote a list of payment systems. If you, your wife and other relatives register in these payment systems and receive 4-7 transfers per year, then perhaps such amounts will not be tracked by the tax authorities.

I am in the EU also and have made multiple transfers from exchanges to my bank account
throughout a given year, probably about 10 in the year all ranging from ~€100 to over €3000
and I never been asked questions. It's the larger amounts like €10k+ is where they are obliged
by law to ask where the funds came from I suspect.

If it's a sizeable amount you need to transfer, like over €100k maybe consider a Swiss
numbered account with a CC! but I don't know the ins and Outs of that approach.


If we are talking about €1M is better to look for a tax advisor, there are ways to legalize it without paying practically nothing by creating a company in a third country that gives you a loan and things like that. I say it by hearsay but there are solutions for large capitals.



Yes these are "Shell Company" based in places like the Caymen Islands and are or were
predominantly former British colonies but still have banking ties to England.

legendary
Activity: 2016
Merit: 1401
Disobey.
January 07, 2023, 11:41:02 AM
#25
Thought I already replied to this but it seems to have been a similar topic.

There are some non-KYC exchanges. I like Bisq as it is a decentralized open-source project.
You can read more about it here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-how-to-buy-and-sell-bitcoin-using-bisq-5430964

They allow quite a few payment methods including direct bank-cashout.
I guess it will depend on the amount you try to cash out and your bank if you will need any advanced verfication of the sold coins later on.
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1586
BTC 100k 2024
January 05, 2023, 02:42:44 PM
#24
2. Set up a business which accepts Bitcoin then slowly mix the coin into your own turnover. (I am not sure about the legality of this one so maybe get legal advice.)

That would be a picture book example of money laundering so I wouldn't do that!  Wink 

But yeah, cashing out slowly in small increments is probably the way to go. Even if you raise some red flags there's noting strictly illegal about owning Non-KYC coins in the EU, so while it could be a hassle it shouldn't come with legal problems (unless you try to e.g. evade taxes or launder it as per the example above).

Yeah I guess so. Although technically its his rightfully earned money and he would be paying taxes on it either way, so while it does resemble money laundering, it cannot really compare to the same kind of money laundering as with stolen money/funding illegal activities/avoiding tax responsibilities etc....

Basically OP is willing to pay taxes he/she just wants to avoid the headache of trying to prove its his money. So that is why I mentioned the business part as a possibility.

But you are completely correct. It most probably will be seen as money laundering under the law and its not something I recommend. Just an idea I had.
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2043
January 05, 2023, 05:38:51 AM
#23
2. Set up a business which accepts Bitcoin then slowly mix the coin into your own turnover. (I am not sure about the legality of this one so maybe get legal advice.)

That would be a picture book example of money laundering so I wouldn't do that!  Wink 

But yeah, cashing out slowly in small increments is probably the way to go. Even if you raise some red flags there's noting strictly illegal about owning Non-KYC coins in the EU, so while it could be a hassle it shouldn't come with legal problems (unless you try to e.g. evade taxes or launder it as per the example above).
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1586
BTC 100k 2024
January 04, 2023, 08:02:40 PM
#22
Hi,

Question about cashing in BTC in EU. (asking fresh advice after scouring through the forums)

I've been hodling a handful of BTC for almost 10 years, with a few shitcoin excursions in the early years.

Since then, just hodled quite conservatively.

Here's the complex part:

I bought almost all of them with cash from an ATM at < 1000e.

I have no receipts, no proof of purchase and I have mostly self-custodied them on a multiple hardware wallets since.

Funds have moved wallets multiple times and I don't have all the transactions in between then and now. I do have some records from old exchanges but not a complete history.


That said, I think I might be able to control my 'first' hardware wallet. As a privacy proponent I also mixed some the coins a few years ago.

So now I'm in a situation where I need to grudginly cash-in some of it to stay warm in the house.
I need to get the funds in a bank account so I can pay bills, so I am not looking for p2p cash deals.

My understanding is that a traditional bank will frown at this to say the least.

What are my options? Does anyone have any experience on how to go about this in a legitimate way?

If bank, what kind of proof do they need in this case?
How to go about 'proving ownership' or what is the procedure both with the bank and the tax folks?

Any legal, professional advice, resources, links or other information would be helpful. Based in EU.

Also if anyone knows any technical tools that could help me make sense of my transaction history in a secure way, would be great.

Thanks all,




Well, you really put yourself into a pickle with this one. Since you do not have the requirements to prove the coin really belongs to you, If we are talking about large sums, you could do this either in two ways:

1. Have a talk with the bank/tax authorities about how to process this. Obviously the government will want a share in the taxes.
2. Set up a business which accepts Bitcoin then slowly mix the coin into your own turnover. (I am not sure about the legality of this one so maybe get legal advice.)

Personally, I think you could even cash in, in small increments without people raising an eyebrow. I doubt the bank or the government will become suspicious of you unless you alert them by dealing with unusually large sums of money)
legendary
Activity: 1694
Merit: 4213
December 28, 2022, 10:51:13 AM
#21
I don't believe that there are no people in the Netherlands who will exchange cryptocurrency for cash.
But if you want to change cryptocurrency through a bank, then do not use your main bank cards for this purpose, on which you receive salaries, benefits, compensations, and so on. For these purposes, use another service.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 5364
Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat⚔️
December 27, 2022, 06:26:26 AM
#20
In which country do you live in? 

First, would be nice to know where in EUR you're residing as local laws in many EU countries may differ.

I reside in the Netherlands.

If the OP wants to do it in his country, then the only correct advice is to send an inquiry to the local authorities and explain his situation to them. As I wrote in the previous post, there are other completely legal ways to do it in some other EU countries without involving banks, CEX and without KYC.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1163
December 26, 2022, 06:09:04 PM
#19
First, would be nice to know where in EUR you're residing as local laws in many EU countries may differ. In many (most) countries there's a maximum non-taxable amount of around 40k EUR. I believe your bills will be smaller than that amount?

You could use a crypto debit card (Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc.) or p2p local exchange to withdraw and then there are ATM where you can deposit funds to your account with no questions asked. If you keep the amounts reasonable, that won't be a red flag for your bank.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 6415
Farewell, Leo
December 26, 2022, 05:39:18 PM
#18
In which country do you live in? If it's one with a tax framework on cryptocurrencies, you're safe to cash out some thousands, if you're willing to pay the tax. I don't believe there's a direct answer to your question, though. Usually, it's fine. You can call this capital appreciation (and it is, indeed) and you'll be fine.

I recommend you asking your local board for a bank that doesn't ask for further info, to have less troubles.
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