Topic: Not Your Keys Not your Coins Banner Needed Everywhere? (Read 737 times)

Well, the popular saying isn't exactly beginner friendly either. We have to remember that we will have new users that aren't familiar with what a key is. Some might argue they should know that, but Bitcoin has now started to leak into the non technical user area, and people will generally learn as they go, rather than researching it before. Since, we're pretty much in the fear of missing out era, and people go in blind just in case they get lucky.

I said it before, but we've got to be as clear, and concise as possible without mentioning too much jargon, even if it's the most basic things as a key.

If theymos had used that slogan it maybe could have been perceived as an endorsement of that particular website therefore maybe he decided to use something else. I would prefer your approach of mentioning exchanges too as it might be more effective but at least some sort of message is being put out there as a warning and that is a good thing.

I am actually glad theymos didn't use the standard slogan we keep hearing all over the place. Those who know what it means, are already not keeping coins with custodians. Those that don't, either don't care or are thinking it's (hopefully) not going to happen to me. Displaying it all over the place will probably not change things too much.

"Don't keep your money in online accounts" is OK, but If I could pick a message, I would be more specific and say: Don't keep your money on cryptocurrency exchanges. The same can be said for any other centralized services (like casinos), but it's the exchanges that cause most of the problems. 

I don't know if someone mentioned this to you already, but all the text in your signature isn't fully visible on the forum. I can only see the top of "1) be like JJG just DCA". It's just enough for me to copy the text and paste it somewhere, but I can't read what it says from your signature space.

True, sort of.  I used to think Bitcoin Core was just as safe as any other Wallet or Exchange although I was already educating myself about Bitcoin.  Did not even know what custodial and non custodial Wallets meant.  I only found out about safety of Decentralized, Open Source wallets much later.  So while I get it and there are a ton of stubborn people, there are also those who truly do not know it is unsafe for funds to sit in an Exchange or Custodial Wallet and need a message that pops up in their eyes to be woken up to reality.

Call me a psychopath, I honestly want this.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

No, it's not needed everywhere, and it's started becoming a little annoying to open up Twitter and see at least one tweet that emphasizes it. We get it. Stupid / irresponsible people aren't going to understand it either way.

Do you seriously want to see newbies complaining about their exchange's bankruptcy with an ironic "not your keys, not your coins" followed? 

Yeah I was lucky 45% of my funds were on coinbase.

The rest 55% is on core wallet and trezor.

Now it is more like 6% of my funds are on coinbase. the rest on trezor and core  wallet.

I have to have some funds on coinbase for business. But not 45% of them.

Sometimes people have to take the L to learn their lesson. No matter how many times the banner gets shown even as a popup, there are those that can't resist the APR or free money by parking their funds at a website they deem "safe".

I was one of those people. The motto never etched in my mindset until that one incident that hit me like a truck, albeit I didn't deposit my entire BTC there. Now my BTC goes straight into the Ledger.

When the OP started this thread on 12 November, at that time there was no reminder/news which appeared on the home page of this forum.
Later on November 15th we saw this News Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts on the main page.
Adding a signature can be a good idea too as the members who aren't wearing any campaign signatures can volunteer to wear those "Not your keys, not your coins" signatures.

The forum admin already added the reminder. So, what are you suggesting regarding the signature might not be needed now. Overdoing this or displaying this everywhere might affect user experience. The focus should be on conveying the message to those who are keeping lot of funds in their exchange so that they can move it from their to hardware wallets. This will ensure safety of their funds and thus proper growth of crypto community also.

I earlier said that this will have no impact but looks like the mods think otherwise. Nice to see that the voice of a normal member is also heard on this forum and necessary changes are made based on the suggestions being made.

What if, at least temporarily, the default signature on the forum was set to show a 'Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins' informational and educational banner?  It sounds to me like a great way to advertise this behavior and gain the most attention.  Especially for Newbies who may be confused as to why their posts have a signature they never chose to have.  Maybe that is a better incentive to educate themselves about the problem.

Or is it possible to show this banner under every post submitted by users who do not currently have a signature?  The signature changes if the user sets anything other than nothing.  If an user clears their signature text, it goes back to advertising Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

Got an improved signature with theymos link. took me time to design and code something simple but I hope good.

This is a welcome addition to what the OP requested, but merely checking the box indicating that one has read the forum rules does not guarantee that one has actually done so. They can be in a haste or a hurry to get right into the forum's main activity without fully comprehending the rules. This is similar to fast searching for information online and being asked to select a box to proceed; one will quickly check the box without carefully reading what it actually means until they later find a mistake or some restrictions that they didn't expect to see.

Since a beginner cannot learn it from the very beginning, it is still likely that they will become a victim of this while they are still learning. The forum can only provide a disclaimer regarding it; nonetheless, the forum lacks the ability to control it completely in order to prevent people from engaging in such action.


Good concept, but not every forum user wears a campaign signature. Even if they have the necessary qualifications to join a campaign, some people are only here to learn and share knowledge. I simply hope they can display it without asking them for it. However, it is still reasonable for individuals who wear campaign adverts to showcase it. The finest idea so far is to have it shown in several parts throughout the forum.

You keep that warning message but that will have no impact. People will do anyway what they are already doing.

Do you think people are unaware about the incidences related to exchange issues where people lost their coins and hard earned money? They are already aware of all this yet they choose to ignore and live without giving any tension of what will happen in future. Most of the people are lazy with finances and looking for shortcuts. They buy some random coin on their crypto exchange and hope for it to become 100 times in some time. They do not care about safety of the coins, they just leave it on the exchange as they are lazy.

And that's the best part that now we have new announcement for the members which they can see and go through brief post on how they can avoid losing funds by keeping them on exchange.

As you see @theymos was keeping an eye on the discussion and also said in his recent post that recent meltdown of FTX also make him realise the importance of guiding members towards it.

Here we go with theymos' important reminder

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts.

The admin watched our discussions and accept to make the important reminder for community.

[General] Bitcoin Wallets - Which, what, why? is another topic about Bitcoin wallet.

USE a few wallets like the core or a trezor

Just in addition to this, I will like to bring up a suggestion that if we can maintain this kind of information display only to the low ranking members which starts from newbie rank to member rank since they are the ones most likely the target for this initiative and as we all know that newbies as well are the ones mostly coming up with questions or issues related to hack or been scammed, i think a full member rank upwards should have build a credible resource enough to understand the difference with not your keys not your coins within thier stay on the forum.

Agree on this part that there can be an warning or say more of advice to the members through these banners on the important announcement section or as a pop up when you login on the forum explaining them the potential damage of holding your funds over these exchanges that can help them through understanding that if they are not in possession of their keys they don't have control over the funds.

But there's already a suggestion @theymos here    in which he has said about a thread in Important announcement section which would be cool to have but rest will be dependent on people as if they are interested in it or still prefer the old way of losing funds.

The risk of holding your coins over these exchanges is well known moreover you have to go through KYC norms also exposing your personal information to them which is later on sold on dark web so ending up your privacy as well so why are we still using up them to hold our coins with their custody?

I think I said this few days back, warnings should be given to those making use of Binance, Do they also think they are not part of all this drama? Not now but soonest. I've seen people using the exchange making mockery of others immediately after the FTX setback.
It can also be included in your personal text, clearly bolded for anyone to see.
I don't blame people, it is just that they are lazy or they find studying wallet's as studying science?
It will be better they remove those coin's now, to avoid naggings worse than a midwife when it finally happens

It is simple and neat.

Where is a safe place to hold BTC?

Not exchanges
Not DeFi platforms

I learn to get non custodial to use for newbies from https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet?step=5&platform=windows&user=beginner&important=control,fees&features=bech32

I choose Segwit address type (Bech32) in Feature, Control and Fee in Criteria; and User type as New.

I learn to DCA from https://dcabtc.com/

Changed my signature.

will move it around bit.

I will ask for some suggestions as to how to dress it up,

 but I have 40k posts so it will be seen around the forum.


I am telling you to hold the btc in a safe place
Dca some
and do not buy too much.
pretty much covers the bases.

Speaking from my own perception, I can say that not up to 10% of the people whose coins are on exchanges are unaware of the Not your Keys Not your Coin slogan. Majority of the people know about the risk of keeping coins in the exchange but yet go ahead to keep it.

Myself I know the risk of keeping coins on exchange and yet I have some percentage of my portfolio on an exchange which I cannot move to my wallet for obvious reasons.
We all need to admit that this industry is so risky and as such we should take risks we can be able to withstand the shock.

We are in the bear market, even if I start a paid campaign for 8 weeks,  preaching to newbies to buy now, majority will not buy now and my campaign will not stop the next set of newbies who are waiting to buy when bitcoin gets to $60k.

We should continue to do our best in spreading the news, the importance if having our coins secured with our keys, but we shouldn't over push it to be an elongated FUD which will cause more harm to the bleeding industry.

I believe Not Your Keys Not Your Coins is even more important right now than something like, say, my own activist campaign considering that a lot of people are going to lose money if they do not see this information very clearly.

I see two options:

1: Put it in the News banner. I don't think you can put custom text in the blue bar, and a factoid is inappropriate for something as important as this.
2: Make a thread in Important Announcements board. Not about FTX but about not your keys, not your coins, and reference Celsius and FTX as recent examples. The last announcement was made in 2018 related to Electrum vulnerabilities, when a lot of people were at risk of losing their money too. So I think it's wholly appropriate.

2 is more advantageous, as you can lobby any global moderator or VIP to post it there without bothering theymos.

That suggestion will not work, campaigns are here in the forum to run their own business and advertisement, and that is what they are going to use their signature and avatar designs for and not for something like this, if there is going to be a not your keys not your coins banner it will have to come through the forum administrator and not through external signature campaigns; the forum has it already as a factoid as i believe i have seen it sometime, if a banner will be added Theymos will have to add it himself.

I have a wild suggestion i don't know how it might sound. How about soliciting to all campaigns on the forum to have it added to their avatar design that way it will capture the attention of forum users  and newbies as it will be seen on regular base so long the user visits the forum. Sometimes activities can make someone forget to move coin bought on CEX back to cold wallets. It really sad how people lose coins and denied access to their coin on exchanges

In addition to the forum rules, which have been suggested several times as a welcome message to newcomers after registration, add this motto and some explanation of this rule. If a person checks the box that he has read all the rules and warnings of the forum, everything that happens to him in the future lies entirely on his shoulders. Of course, it is difficult for a beginner to learn this rule from the first steps, but if the forum is "mother," then it is convenient to teach such warnings with mother's milk.

NotYourKeys.org - Community Contribution Avatar Campaign

Community made contribution and the security checklist is helpful too.

I don't know if any of the factoid slots also have a NYKNYC warning so far, but it might be useful if the admins want to insert one. Even if the level of awareness among people about factoid slots is still very low, it reflects that the forum also cares deeply about the safety of its users' funds in bitcoin.

Of course I don't think this is sound advice on my part, but something like that could be helpful.

That's true, but just having a warning like that--which, if a newcomer doesn't understand it's meaning might Google it--isn't really being intrusive, paternalistic, or anything like that.  It's a piece of wisdom that anyone in the crypto space should have firmly lodged in their head.  Seriously, that phrase above all others I can think of is the most important thing someone who owns crypto should have guiding them.

I support this suggestion fully, though obviously it all depends on whether Theymos wants to add something like that.  Something like this certainly couldn't hurt, and it'd probably be easy to do.

One would hope so, but keep in mind that there are a lot of members active on this forum, and it'd be nearly impossible for all of them to be adhering to the wisdom in the NYKNYC statement.  Like I said, what harm can it do?

I do not think it is necessary.
I would dare to say most of the people around here already practice self-custody in a proper way. Probably, most of the victims of these collapses we are witnessing around us are people who have invested in Bitcoin in a casual way or traders (who need to keep part of their funds in their preferred exchange), I don't consider the average Bitcointalk user to be a casual investor.

On the other hand, I do not completely oppose the idea, I could serve as some of time mark,  "reminder" of the fall of these services or pseudo-official statement of this community in the middle of this chaos.

The saying sounds simple enough, but its true meaning is often overlooked by newcomers. Many people fail to appreciate the importance of this statement and the phrase will ring hollow, which is unfortunate.

I agree, of course, that it is good to inform young members about all the risks of keeping coins on centralized exchanges and other services, but it is even more important that they understand all the risks associated with holding their coins. What good is it if they have their keys but are unaware of the importance of keeping them safe? We have had numerous examples of naive and inexperienced users entering private keys on various sites and forms, only to lose their coins to scammers. The point is, no matter how hard we try, some members are impossible to save if they don't make the effort to learn about all possible threats on their own.

You can't fix stupid, especially when greed is part of it. And let's face it, some people are too stupid to handle their own keys properly so a message like that might backfire even if anyone paid attention to it ("Dave told me to keep coins in my own wallet and I lost my phone and now I'm broke").

Having said that, I fully support informed decisions even if they're wrong, so yes, the forum should encourage users to own their keys and bear responsibility for losing their coins instead of just giving them up to random scammers.

If you keep this NYKNYC banner everywhere all the time you will create countereffect, people will get used to it and won't pay much attention on real meaning.
I seriously doubt many people even understand what this saying ''not your keys, not your coins'' really means, they think if this coins are on centralized exchanges, it's still their coins.
I would say that exchanging Bitcoin for shitcoins is even worse, for example, I just heard that Tether blacklisted $31.4M USDT after FTX hack!
That being said, I am not against banner or signature campaign that promotes and educates importance of real coin keys ownership.

Important Announcements

No matter how determined you're to save people what many have termed entrapment in centralized exchanges, it's not going to be enough. No one can save the world. There are still going to be people who just stare at the message but go ahead to do whatever that pleases them. After all, isn't it their money? Now the interesting part is that there isn't anyway everyone can take their coins off exchanges even when they know the risk involved. Maybe investors shouldn't leave their coins there but not daily traders.

It may save few people for sure but instead of banner can we have a child board for all the important things?

Don't get me wrong because people who are holding their cryptocurrencies in their exchange without aware of the difference between holding in a non custodial wallet and exchange then its simply due to their ignorance and such users definitely need guides for everything to get saved from scam.

The only problem was the majority of crypto user that storing most of their assets on exchange is not regular forum member. Most of them is just using social media to get an update and socialized on crypto topics. I believe most of the forum users especially rank up members is already familiar and applying this on there personal finances.

Those newbie on social media just move here in the forum whenever they encounter inconvenience like FTX to seek alternative solution on there fck up situation.

I bet this is cryptosec.info or the notyourkeys.org campaign.

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I don't know if it's only me, but i guess most people who uses exchanges knows this line very well, i mean the meaning behind it, but what? They still do it, taking risks trading, storing funds on exchanges as if it's their personal wallets. Mostly because they think it like banks where most knows banks is for storing money, where they don't want responsibilities to their money of securing whatever you warned them because of technicalities so exchanges will do the job for them, assuming that they will be refunded when a hack happens.

Actually, i have friends who do like this^, simply avoiding responsibilities.

This is a valid point of concern because when exchanges are sinking they take down their investors funds with them. Having said that, will theymos allow for the banner display to happen?

I cannot see him adding a not your keys not your coins banner (especially for free) as a warning no matter how much momentum the campaign gathers. Even paid banner advertising was discontinued therefore if financial gain or placement of free public announcement for benefit of the community will not sway his opinion, then what will?



Is something like this what you mean?

My understanding is you are talking about a tag line of the main name.
When you are saying not your key not your coins then you are basically telling it about the forum which does not sound related at all, sounds of topic with the forum name. If we all value the phrase then as team of the community we can have our personal text dedicated for it. Imagine majority of the members have same phrase, it will defiantly create a sense for anyone.

Users who are not using there personal text for any paid advertising they can volunteer. We also can have a factoid on the forum advertising space.

I think having a banner as we had in the form of ads would be great and noticeable, only texts are less noticeable most of the time. The banner can link a thread where we can see all the scandals related to exchanges where users lost their funds for not having the private key, for using the custodial wallet. That would create more awareness I think.
I just had a check and found no factoids text on this unless I have missed something.

Some time ago there was a free campaign with personal text+avatar that just promoted that idea, and some members, including myself, gladly accepted that idea in the hope that we will at least have a little influence on some members or guests to understand how important it is to have their private keys under full control. Maybe someone understood the message, but if we know that there are millions of cryptocurrency investors who have no idea that this forum even exists, I wonder how much impact such a message would have.

I'm not sure, but I think I've seen such a message in the factoids that are now displayed a lot more on the forum, and if I'm wrong, maybe the admin could add such a warning to the collection.

90-10

I need at least 10% on coinbase.

The other 90% can be on my wallets.

Yeah a warning would be a decent suggestion.

But fuck stable coins also works.

Or do nothing.

Which works for those that keep most of their coins in their own personal wallets.

Title says it all, with yet another disaster going on with the exchanges imploding should there be a constant banner someplace that just keeps the NYKNYC message up?
Across the top between where it says Bitcoin Forum on the left and simple machines forum on the right just the Not Your Keys Not your Coins text up there.

Call it subminimal messaging, call it keeping it in the public eye, whatever. Just so it's there.

Counterpoint: What I keep saying, we are an internet forum....not your mom.

Just a thought. If it saves some people some money it may be worth it.


-Dave