NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 422.

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: rdanneskjoldr on March 10, 2014, 11:12:40 AM

I think something like this could solve the passphrase problem,adapted to Nxt,keeping its essence of brain wallet,and no wallet.dat file.People could generate their passphrases with no need of knowing them in a super easy way,and would follow BCNext's first idea.

http://braincontrol.me/
http://betanomics.asia/blog/store-and-send-bitcoin-directly-from-your-brain-using-braincontrol

BrainControl ultimately uses the following function to determenistically generate the necessary keys at the precise time required to perform any sensitive functionality such as send or backing-up:

Code:

Someone will need to explain this in a little more detail. Won't URL always be the same? (in case of a desktop client there's even no URL).

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Wow, almost had a brain aneurism catching up on the thread, definitely some weekend diarrhea posts by certain members (you know who you are). Anyway, glad to see TF being implemented. Also, Really like Parallel Chains, we need to get this implemented before CFB launches into outer space. I don't think we need to lock this thread, but there needs to be more participation in other threads: http://www.nxtcoins.nl/bitcointalk-threads/

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: bidji29 on March 10, 2014, 11:09:17 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 11:03:03 AM

Come on. Do you really think a wallet file, which can get corrupted, or lost ("oh i deleted the program folder, didn't know that...."), or not found ("where is the fucking folder") is easier than a "please write this down"?

Yes it is easier.
I described earlier the steps between the different method :

A newcomer need to pass through 5 steps before having access to an account number.

- Launch the client
- Click on "Not registered? Click here!"
- Move his mouse arround
- Land on a complicated message. Then, copy a set of of 12 word (That's the worst step. Not user-friendly at all )
- Then recopy those word to finally have an account number

This solution is an improvment of course but I think a wallet.dat is really needed if we want to touch a wider audience.

With a wallet.dat. There is only ONE step :

-Launch the client

It's always possible to encrypt and backup the wallet.dat later. I don't think those security measure should happen at the first launch, because it's not very user friendly.
There is always the possibility to add a warning for that at the 5 or 10th launch of the client.

And in case you didn't notice the first time :
Wesley i'm ready to donate another 40k NXT to you if you implement the wallet.dat feature, with a high priority

4 steps as the mouse moving is not necessary in the newer browsers. And thanks for the possible donation, brainwallet will be implemented hopefully within 1-2 weeks max.

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: opticalcarrier on March 10, 2014, 11:10:41 AM

On the other hand if we go .dat file storage and they screw up, there is a long history of de facto standard that has precedence that protects NXT from blame. Do you have this protection with method of using brainwallet as default? nope you dont.

Good point.

rdanneskjoldr

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 250

I think something like this could solve the passphrase problem,adapted to Nxt,keeping its essence of brain wallet,and no wallet.dat file.People could generate their passphrases with no need of knowing them in a super easy way,and would follow BCNext's first idea.

http://braincontrol.me/
http://betanomics.asia/blog/store-and-send-bitcoin-directly-from-your-brain-using-braincontrol

BrainControl ultimately uses the following function to determenistically generate the necessary keys at the precise time required to perform any sensitive functionality such as send or backing-up:

Code:

opticalcarrier

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 11:03:03 AM

Quote from: bidji29 on March 10, 2014, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:42:15 AM

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

Come on. Do you really think a wallet file, which can get corrupted, or lost ("oh i deleted the program folder, didn't know that...."), or not found ("where is the fucking folder") is easier than a "please write this down"?

we can make the same argument about writing something down "which can get corrupted, or lost"

so not only do we want to introduce NXT to the world that's protocol is completely different than the de facto standard of bitcoin, we also want to change the main account access method? You guys are failing human computer interaction.

Heres the deal:

If we go the brainwallet method and people screw up, they look back and say "why arent you like BTC? if you were like BTC I wouldnt have lost my NXT. NXT sucks" Someone's previous suggestion of "users being too stupid" or whatever it was... yeah right, sure thats really the way to go.

On the other hand if we go .dat file storage and they screw up, there is a long history of de facto standard that has precedence that protects NXT from blame. Do you have this protection with method of using brainwallet as default? nope you dont.

bidji29

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 11:03:03 AM

Come on. Do you really think a wallet file, which can get corrupted, or lost ("oh i deleted the program folder, didn't know that...."), or not found ("where is the fucking folder") is easier than a "please write this down"?

Yes it is easier.
I described earlier the steps between the different method :

A newcomer need to pass through 5 steps before having access to an account number.

- Launch the client
- Click on "Not registered? Click here!"
- Move his mouse arround
- Land on a complicated message. Then, copy a set of of 12 word (That's the worst step. Not user-friendly at all )
- Then recopy those word to finally have an account number

This solution is an improvment of course but I think a wallet.dat is really needed if we want to touch a wider audience.

With a wallet.dat. There is only ONE step :

-Launch the client

It's always possible to encrypt and backup the wallet.dat later. I don't think those security measure should happen at the first launch, because it's not very user friendly.
There is always the possibility to add a warning for that at the 5 or 10th launch of the client.

And in case you didn't notice the first time :
Wesley i'm ready to donate another 40k NXT to you if you implement the wallet.dat feature, with a high priority

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: BrianNowhere on March 10, 2014, 11:05:58 AM

Would it be

1626¹⁰

Why 10?

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:24:46 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on March 10, 2014, 10:06:14 AM

Any suggestions about Parallel Chains? If not then I'll stick to BCNext's draft.

What is his draft exactly? Some of his suggestions wouldn't make sense now.

BrianNowhere

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:27:26 AM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on March 10, 2014, 10:24:38 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:12:47 AM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on March 10, 2014, 10:10:08 AM

I have a question about this.

If the password cracker knows what dictionary you are using, couldn't they just make a database of these words and cycle through every possible combination of said words instead of cycling through letter by letter?

Yes, and now calculate the combinations and come back with the number Wink

I have not the math skills to do even this.

1600 * 10 = 160,000
ok, I'm lost.

I was just wondering if the security level is the same if you change the brute force method in this way or if it decreases at all.

We make it simple. Imagine each word is a character, as you suggested. But now, for every of the 12 characters we type, we can choose out of 1626 characters.

First character (word): 1626 possibilities
Second character (word): 1626 possibilities
....

Now calculate. You can do it. Math is cool.

I agree math is cool. It's even cooler to me cause I'm pretty bad with it. Embarrassingly so, especially since I've done some programming.
It usually takes me a while when I get to the math parts. I even calculated the above wrong (1600 * 10 - 160,000?) and tried to fix it before someone capped it. fail.

Would it be

1626¹⁰

or

1.2918301e+32

bitcoinpaul

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: bidji29 on March 10, 2014, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:42:15 AM

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

Come on. Do you really think a wallet file, which can get corrupted, or lost ("oh i deleted the program folder, didn't know that...."), or not found ("where is the fucking folder") is easier than a "please write this down"?

MyZhre

full member

Activity: 193

Merit: 100

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on March 10, 2014, 10:54:31 AM

Some average joe questions:

1) Can anybody register a slave chain anytime?
2) Does the slave coin transaction require nxt as fee?
3) What's the benefit been a slave chain, 51% attack resistance? direct trade with nxt?
4) How difficult to create a slave chain? compare to clone bitcoin/litecoin or NXT

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Not difficult
[/quote]

Thanks, I think I need a chain for my really GREAT idea (well, at least i think so)!

opticalcarrier

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:42:15 AM

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

This is obviously not the case. Your argument is EXACTLY why people are losing money - even just now you called it a password. ITS NOT A PASSWORD ITS A PASSPHRASE there is a huge difference in the NXT application with a live public blockchain. People are treating this passphrase entry box exactly like you just called it (password) like they treat any password box they see, and people are still losing their NXT due to shitty passphrases, even with our best efforts at prevention with the warning we put up in NRS. Have you read it?

On the other hand, .dat functionality is already in use by probably millions of people by now with BTC and other bitcoins. And there are tons of existing data backup options for users.

Im not saying to get rid of brainwallet; its an extremely cool feature and required for online wallets. But its apparent that many people cannot handle it.

It is bad practice to just say "well too bad for those dumbasses, they just cant handle it" We might could have got away with it had brainwallet come out before .dat file storage did, but we didnt.

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: bidji29 on March 10, 2014, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:42:15 AM

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

They do need to know there's a brainwallet, as it should be a) encrypted, b) backed up by the user. Otherwise the same situation as we have now could arise. (computer crash -> nxt lost, etc).

bidji29

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on March 10, 2014, 10:42:15 AM

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: martismartis on March 10, 2014, 10:50:36 AM

Quote from: wesleyh on March 10, 2014, 10:46:48 AM

Quote from: martismartis on March 10, 2014, 10:43:40 AM

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Quote from: martismartis on March 07, 2014, 06:53:31 AM

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

Ok, thank you.

I meant, I see changes in dashboard->account balance total sum, but in recent transactions there are only actions, like bid or ask, and just paid fees for this.

Yep, it doesn't create transactions. I was flustered at first too..

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: MyZhre on March 10, 2014, 10:48:35 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on March 10, 2014, 10:06:14 AM

Any suggestions about Parallel Chains? If not then I'll stick to BCNext's draft.

Some average joe questions:

1) Can anybody register a slave chain anytime?
2) Does the slave coin transaction require nxt as fee?
3) What's the benefit been a slave chain, 51% attack resistance? direct trade with nxt?
4) How difficult to create a slave chain? compare to clone bitcoin/litecoin or NXT

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Not difficult

martismartis

legendary

Activity: 1162

Merit: 1005

Quote from: wesleyh on March 10, 2014, 10:46:48 AM

Quote from: martismartis on March 10, 2014, 10:43:40 AM

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Quote from: martismartis on March 07, 2014, 06:53:31 AM

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

Ok, thank you.

I meant, I see changes in dashboard->account balance total sum, but in recent transactions there are only actions, like bid or ask, and just paid fees for this.

MyZhre

full member

Activity: 193

Merit: 100

There is a big difference between bitcoin core devs and NXT devs, unlike bitcoin core devs, NXT guys wont be arguing that "1 + 1 = 1"

I also doubt any would gleefully destroy other coins with 51% attacks and brag about it

Analyze the "Compuserve vs Internet" as it played out in the market. Why did compuserve lose its dominant position to the Internet?

When you are in a stable market (<10% per year growth), then by all means monetize till the cows come home. Keep adding charges, fees, restrictions. Abuse your customer base, squeeze out all the money you can. Just make sure to monitor growth rates and back off if you start hurting it more than you gain.

When you are in an exponentially growing market, every customer today represents ten or a hundred future customers. This means is it "penny wise, pound foolish" to put any restrictions of any form on customer acquisition and retention. I dont think anybody can credibly argue with the math.

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Quote from: martismartis on March 10, 2014, 10:43:40 AM

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Quote from: martismartis on March 07, 2014, 06:53:31 AM

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 422. (Read 2761638 times)