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Topic: Objections to the non-aggression principle - page 5. (Read 5897 times)

newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
February 20, 2012, 11:48:03 AM
#10
This isn't true. You are confusing aggression with violence.
So educate me. What's the difference?

Finally, if government is so inherently evil, how does it arise in the first place?

Power in numbers.

People come together for one reason or another and then refuse to separate after the goals are achieved. Once the system is in place, certain individuals realize they can take advantage of it to achieve power without production. People accept it because responsibility is difficult work.
Well, sometimes those goals are ongoing. For example, public goods, like infrastructure, need maintenence. Society always needs some people in positions of power. People just need to know when to revolt.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
February 20, 2012, 11:33:14 AM
#9
You may use proportional force to repeal or punish an initiation of aggression (violation of rights).

So funny. For about the hundredth time in about the past six months, who exactly agrees that you may use proportional force? What if your neighbor doesn't buy into NAP?
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
February 20, 2012, 11:29:35 AM
#8
We must coerce people into respecting each other's rights.

....

To me, the NAP is about the same as pacifism

That's not an objection against the NAP. Are you sure you read enough about it? NAP != pacifism.

You may use proportional force to repeal or punish an initiation of aggression (violation of rights).

Aggression is fundamental to survival.
If someone needs food, and has no way to get it without killing or stealing, why shouldn't he do so? Without this basic survival instinct, humans would not have survived long enough to invent property rights.

This is wrong.

First, it was our collaborative nature that helped our species to survive long enough. Most people would not kill or hurt other human beings because of food, even in primitive times, they would rather get together to hunt or collect. If they were to behave as you say they should then our species would probably be extinct already.

And second, no, you don't need to violate people's rights to eat.
In practically most modern societies, if you are in such a desperate need, people will help you out.
And if you live in a society which is such in a bad shape that people can't even afford to help an individual in famine, then you're probably not the only one who's screwed there. It is not by allowing robbery (that is, penalizing the few that produce something and helping those who don't) that such awfully poor society will get out of its misery.

Finally, if government is so inherently evil, how does it arise in the first place?

Because evil people exist, and most important, because most people (you included, apparently) fall for its "propaganda", believing it to be a necessary institution, while it is not. (I was among those one day too, of course, but then I ran out of excuses Wink)
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
February 19, 2012, 04:11:45 PM
#7
We must coerce people into respecting each other's rights.
In a completely free society, we must assume the potential of infinite diversity. If we don't, our prejudices would prevent us from respecting the uniqueness of everyone's needs. This would make society quite unfree by definition.

By infinite diversity, you are referring to individual rights. Why are you claiming individual rights have infinite diversity? They may have infinite interpretations depending on infinite instances of disputes, but just because two people disagree on a right does not mean the disagreement cannot be resolved. It is between the two responsible parties to resolve disagreements. Creating government means a one-size-fits-all solution which destroys all demand for private contract resolution institutions, and also prevents innovation in this theoretical industry which could exist if not for government.

Rights are a construct created by man to relate to his fellow man. The tribe, through social interactions, agrees on the rights of it's members. They meet another tribe with slightly different rights, but the amazing thing is how similar they are! This is because to survive, one set of rights is better than another. For example, if the chief has the right to have his way with any female in the tribe, lots of strong young boys will start popping out and the tribe will gain strength. Rights are arbitrary, but survival is based on choosing the best set of rights for your current circumstance.

Americans live in an empire which has oppressed foreigners by stealing the value of their labor through fiat currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts should fully understand the implications of a world reserve currency controlled by a centralized entity. Imagine if every barrel of oil had to be purchased in bitcoins then converted to local currencies. Bitcoin holders would be pretty happy! Well imagine further if you could control the volume of bitcoins in circulation? Holy shit you have more power than anything in the world. The US has more power than anything in the world right now because of their world-wide reserve fiat currency.

Aggression is fundamental to survival.
If someone needs food, and has no way to get it without killing or stealing, why shouldn't he do so? Without this basic survival instinct, humans would not have survived long enough to invent property rights.

I have to agree with this point, but if he tries to kill for food, he may be killed himself. He is initiating aggression and that cannot be justified morally, but that would not stop him or anyone else if that was the ONLY option. But let's ratchet up the scenario, what if without a $75,000 hospital procedure you will die, is it then justified to steal? Of course not. Will people do it to survive? Yes. The question is how should we address this concern we have of starving people. Should we try to find a real sustainable solution to the problem, or should we force every person to throw in some money to give to people who need food. If you look at the result today in any meaningful way, you will see that force is not working as hunger in America has increased significantly.

Finally, if government is so inherently evil, how does it arise in the first place?

The body of people in society share the same moral principles and government enforces those principles. At first government serves the people, but the opportunity to take control and exploit the vast reserves of power government has is just too hard to pass up. Eventually nefarious entities gain control of the power center and all hell breaks loose (a few decades or centuries later). Once the body of people line their moral philosophy based on universal ethics, government is exposed as the fraud it is and can be cast aside. Until that happens let's learn the ways of peaceful interaction, and let's constantly expose the violence that is often hidden in interactions.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
February 19, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
#6
If you are wearing a watch and I take it from you, am I the aggressor or are you? Well, if you took the watch from me yesterday and I'm just getting my property back, then you're the aggressor. If it was always your watch then I'm the aggressor. See, you can't talk about the non-aggression principle in a vacuum. The other side of the coin is property rights, which tells us who exactly the aggressor is.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
February 19, 2012, 11:44:03 AM
#5
Conclusion: "Rights" are a fiction.

Nothing could be more true.

There is non-fiction, which is a body of facts about the way nature works, and a body of facts about that which has happened.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 18, 2012, 03:48:03 AM
#4
The NAP = Dont Touch My Shit

And when you get sick, the NAP doesn't apply because the new rule is "Heal me and no I haven't bothered saving up for your meds."

Most NAP advocates are actually freeloaders.  They don't want to contribute to society when they don't need it.  And they stay quiet about the times they take the benefits of living is a well organised society.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
February 18, 2012, 02:29:01 AM
#3
The NAP = Dont Touch My Shit
Jon
donator
Activity: 98
Merit: 12
No Gods; No Masters; Only You
February 18, 2012, 12:37:31 AM
#2
Conclusion: "Rights" are a fiction. "Evil" is only what we don't prefer as individuals.
newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
February 17, 2012, 09:27:46 PM
#1
Libertarians seem pretty confident in their reasoning ability, but I'm yet to be convinced. In particular, I have two major objections to the non-aggresion principle:

We must coerce people into respecting each other's rights.
In a completely free society, we must assume the potential of infinite diversity. If we don't, our prejudices would prevent us from respecting the uniqueness of everyone's needs. This would make society quite unfree by definition.

Some people won't want to respect the rights of others.

Therefore, individual rights must be enforced by coersion.

(If you bring up the idea of "provocation", please define exactly what you think that word means. To me, the NAP is about the same as pacifism, and it's too easy to redefine provocation to suit one's argument.)

Aggression is fundamental to survival.
If someone needs food, and has no way to get it without killing or stealing, why shouldn't he do so? Without this basic survival instinct, humans would not have survived long enough to invent property rights.

Finally, if government is so inherently evil, how does it arise in the first place?
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