Topic: Oh look! Another covid thread..... - page 2. (Read 997 times)

The truth still remains that the whole facts and truth concerning the outbreak of corona virus have not fully be expressed. It's even hard choosing what to believe anymore as many evidence are arising showing where it started and alot more countering the evidence that stated where it started. I just hope we tackle this real soon and get back to normalcy soonest.

Lots of conspiracies that floats around from 5G to that thing that had mentioned on OP.I dont care that much for now for those issues yet the thing we all need is the cure or vaccine for this virus.
This wont really stop until that vaccine would be created and i do have also those questions on mind why other countries(including my country) do already making such decisions on lifting the
enhance quarantine or lockdown even though the case havent still get to 0 which means it can potentially spread out even if theres only one spreader on a certain area.A total non-sense kind of decision to e made.

Biological warfare has been a thing for years, even in second world war there was a biological warfare going around, and the peak was probably Vietnam war when Americans dropped with "Agent Orange" over 4 million people were exposed, that is a bigger number than what we have in 2020 with corona virus, right now there are about 3.3 million infected with corona and that stopped the whole world, people are staying at home and flights are cancelled and many are isolated, that is 3.3 million, Agent Orange was 4 million and wasn't a big deal only because it happened in one nation and it was done by USA so nobody really cared.

We all see the war movies from USA perspective, think about all the Vietnamese people who had to go through a war with a nation that has a bigger army than next 26 combined. So, biological warfare is not something new I am afraid, been around for a long time.

Maybe it's not as bad as you think?
Yes, China is guilty in the fact of occurrence of the current situation it is an indisputable fact (and I very much hope that he will be punished for that).
Yes, people are dying (but the risk group is the elderly and people who have some other current diseases, people with weak immune systems).
Perhaps I will seem very rude and I will be hated but such situations are still useful to the planet. A sharp renewal of the population (on a historical scale, of course - you will see, in a year the results of isolation and the next baby boom will go). In countries with a high percentage of the elderly population who sit on pensions cost of payments will be lower.
In economic terms, the economy can't exist without a crisis and oil + virus gave the global market a big shake-up. After the recovery, growth will start again, taking into account past mistakes, and many roads will open for new entrepreneurs.
I believe that COVID is a difficult test, but it have own advantages. IMHO

I am sure there will be a lot of investigation after this.
What if it is really a weapon and just used that market as an alibi.

Authorities which do international investigations cannot move right now because of flights being denied.
I don't want to really have a deep thought about it but this could start a war that will be worse than this pandemic if facts of it being a weapon suddenly comes out.
I am just speculating but I have real doubts that it came from their delicacies.
Bat soup for example. It went to a boiling point if I am not mistaken, so that the taste will be combined to the soup.
So why? Bacteria don't live in a boiling point and so does the corona virus.

They better keep this all in a good confidential room or else someone will dig it.
It means real war if proven.

So what should be the next thing to do after the virus is gone in our countries?
Better save some food that will last for a long time. Dig that bunker deeper too in case they are now using more equipped technologies.
Scary, but it might happen.

the beginning of the outbreak began in Wuhan and they could quickly settle in ways that had to be recognized very well, so that they did not drag on. but not with other countries that are now almost all infected, shocked because they did not think that this pandemic could be more dangerous than bird flu. all affected countries look unprepared and do not even think about the magnitude of the impact.
all methods are done and tried with various protocol rules made with "Lockdown" or "Stay Home", but can not also solve the problem because each country will be different to reveal. If a developing country is carried out "Lockdown" the state must prepare funds for those who cannot afford to live, otherwise there will be a disaster for the poor to starve and there will be chaos and fear.

many countries blamed China with this outbreak because it was alleged that they were not forthright and open with this pandemic, some even accused because China wanted to control the economy. where they are now better equipped than newly infected countries. but there is no strong evidence of this to accuse China of doing so, even though the US and European countries are already demanding compensation.

hope this pandemic ends soon and WHO is helped by countries that understand more about pandemic to find drugs or serums so that the pandemic can be dealt with quickly.

"Stay Home"
if you really need to travel, don't forget your mask

There is a fake fact that we received about the corona pandemic. Let's agree to move on from negative news about Corona and focus on resolving a pandemic by looking at a number of countries that are successful in preventing a pandemic. The main reason many countries are not open to the number of pandemic victims is to avoid chaos and keep saving the face of a government that has failed to stem the coronavirus. Many governments use economic calculations to solve humanitarian problems, so it is too late to take decisive action which ultimately results in greater losses.

A story from one of my buyers in Ho Chi Minh City that out of a total of 90 million inhabitants, only 270 people were affected by Corona and all of them survived, no one died, even though Vietnam borders directly with China. Since last Monday, Vietnam has been active since the lockdown for three weeks. My buyer thinks that in Indonesia conditions are very tense because the number of sufferers reaches 10,000 people.

Finally, we exchanged information on how to handle a pandemic in our respective countries. My buyer told me that the school was immediately closed since January when 10 positive people found corona until now. Even an area with a population of 10,000 people was isolated in mid-February to prevent the spread of corona. Vietnamese lockdown is similar to lockdown in Wuhan. Many airlines have been suspended, a two-week quarantine program for migrants from the red region and a ban on the export of wild animals.

Wuhan is now almost normal after 76 days of lockdown. So whatever news about corona in China can be accessed, there is no magic happening in China, only a combination of technology, management, and leadership to solve the Corona pandemic. Many world leaders underestimate the nature of making strategic decisions that cause complications to spread to domestic economic and political problems. In the end, what the government did that failed was to find a scapegoat instead of copying the steps of countries that were successful in suppressing corona.

They were suffering from virus (and still are I am sure) as any other country out there, perhaps they've lost even more than any other country since their working power was their economy engine all the way and now it is still partially shut down.
Clearly there is something governments does not want us to know about, but I don't believe it is about virus' origins and/or amount of people ill out there.
They probably are hiding how much money they've lost during this quarantine because people would freak out

According to what I heard, Wuhan in China was on lockdown when the virus started. I think they were able to withhold the virus from spreading to their other states by immediately locking down Wuhan and preventing movements.And of course, I have read a lot of people say that the China created the virus.

A lot of things has been said about this and people who say it usually point out valid points on what made them make such statements. There were lots of journalists and doctors that went missing after they tried to let the world know about the virus. This makes it seem like they were trying to cover up about the virus and has silenced those scientists and journalists.

WHat no way. I could have sworn I saw Trump boasting about the lawsuit in some sort of a press conference. AM I tripping???

I agree that focusing anger on china would be pretty much useless, what good is a lawsuit when your economy tumbling down the road.

---

So I saw a documentary on netlflix on this whole thing, and interestingly enough, there were teams in China that were examining bats in underground caves in china, and as a matter of fact they came across this virus and at the moment they didn't find it deadly enough to cause a pandemic and they labeled it as a low risk virus. And once this outbreak occured and they tested the well known Covid-19 with their tests, there was a 96% similarity to the virus they had previously discovered. ALSO, the doctor who wanted to warn regarding this whole virus got threatened by the chinese police to not ensue this matter, and ergo thats how this whole spread went from bad to worse. The doctor is now dead from the virus. So yeah, China could have definitely avoided all this.

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^{Am gonna read the rest of the replies now.}

Yeah, I totally remember him saying:

Funny how you bring up what Trump was tweeting when you were doing the same after he was getting serious ..Ironic, isn't it?

And yeah, China could have prevented it!
If they would have kept their word after SARS. Close the damn stinky markets! But that is what the CCP is doing, promising, and doing the opposite.
If they would have kept their word none of this shit would have ever happened!!!!!

And this is my last intervention about politics here, you have your view about China and the West I have my own and 3 pages should have proved we won't be changing them.
 
At least economical we are on the same page book.
Back to it:


Border control will probably keep people inside, and keep the workforce there..man...this sounds really bad, really bad, it's like keeping them there so they could provide cheap labor, in reality, is the way things are but still, we all know it's happening, but it's still wrong.

Now I wanted to add something, about this workforce and industry shift...
In the long term the plan will not work in any country.

Let's take for example the eastern block.
People first moved factories to the first line, the Czech Republic, Hungary and then those become expensive, and they've moved them again then the border and even the poorest regions become too expensive. If you're going to bring a car plant in a region it will require specialized force, not the packaging factory worker, those people ask for more money and are paid more to be kept, even in SE Asia it's the same. With that, you have higher wages, more purchasing power by a group, a rise in demand for products, a rise in prices, and thus pushing the lower-income employee's in a worse situation than before as nobody is going to work in a garment factory for 400 euros when they know Michelin is paying 1000 for the same hard work.

The more factories appear, demand, and offer a kick in, driving up wages and pushing industries that need unspecialized workers out of business.

The exodus to Mexico will be short-lived, that's why I'm betting on India and Bangladesh with an insane reservoir of cheap workers for years to come, people that, as bad as it sounds, have no other option than a 300$ a month paycheck.Sad, unfair, and everything else, but I think this is how things will go unless a huge breakthrough in robotics, which will not help them at all and even make things worse.

And as a conclusion to the first post fo the topic.
No, the US won't be getting back even 1% of its industry and manufacturing from China.

Maybe. The number of illegal immigrants in the US (who are mostly from Mexico) is down ~7.5% since 2007. Migration from Mexico to the US has drastically declined in recent years in general. It all depends on the US labor market and economic conditions in Mexico. Increased border enforcement in recent years will probably continue pressuring those numbers down too.


Yep, how capital intensive an industry is would be a big determining factor. It's obvious any exodus from China would be limited, although that may be enough to affect their growth model.


In December, the corona virus was literally unknown, yet to be isolated or understood. It's extremely unfair to compare that period to January, when Western countries were fully apprised about the pathogen and the risks involved.

Even still, the time from December 1st to Hubei lockdown on January 23rd = 53 days.

Meanwhile, Western officials were aware of the risk in late December. What did they do? Trump told everyone there was nothing to worry about for months, no travel restrictions until February, no lockdowns until the third week of March, leading to massive public gatherings such as this one which underpinned NYC's explosion in cases a few weeks later.

CDC/NIH informed on December 31st to first US lockdown on March 19th = 79 days.

In late February, notable Italian officials were engaging in publicized handshaking, encouraging the public not to socially distance. National lockdown occurred on March 9th, so that's 69 days.

If the Chinese had not handed Western countries the SARS-CoV-2 genome and informed them of the likelihood of human-to-human transmission, Western countries would have taken even longer to react since their policy was to do absolutely nothing until a local epidemic had already appeared.

If the outbreak occurred in the West, the response would have been much, much slower than China. That much is obvious.


How does that make singular cases (such as the December 1st case you mention) easier to identify as the potential source of a novel epidemic, when the pathogen is unknown and can't be readily tested for? Comparing the number of types of infectious vs. noninfectious is meaningless. What matters is actual prevalence.

In one off cases of pneumonitis, if a patient doesn't respond to antibiotics or test positive for known pathogens, the evidence points to a noninfectious condition unless some actual epidemiologic data suggests otherwise.

This epidemiologic data did not obviously appear until around December 30th, when doctors including Li Wenliang recognized and reported 7 confirmed cases of SARS-like coronavirus seemingly associated with the Huanan Seafood Market.

It sounds like you expect any patient who ever develops ILI or pneumonia to be rigorously studied for the possibility of a novel pathogen. That's not done in any country, and certainly not in China. In most ILI cases, doctors don't even do laboratory testing to determine the actual cause!


Not the point:


Sure, China is untrustworthy. That doesn't mean China could have prevented the pandemic, as you have been asserting. Every step of the way, Western governments acted as if they were determined to worsen the pandemic. And that's exactly what happened.

I don't bother playing the blame game. It instills irrational anger and hatred and accomplishes nothing. China and the West are both to blame, but Western countries handled the pandemic decidedly worse than China, which makes the China finger pointing all the more ridiculous.

Unfortunately, things don't work as simple as that.
You mentioned Eastern Europe, with wages half of those of the western part you would think  Romania and Bulgaria would be flooded with factories, right?
Well, there is a tiny problem...
Most of them have fled to the western part of the EU, some 6 million according to sources, 6 million out of 20!!!
I didn't believe at first when somebody told me that they are granting 30k licenses for foreign workers out of South Asia because they lack people.
https://asiatimes.com/2019/11/romania-hungary-fill-labor-shortage-with-asians/

Same for Mexico, sooner or later almost all of the working force will think of crossing the border.

What you need is a workforce that is a prisoner in its country, where there is an insane reservoir of workers that move only by the approval of the state, the 300 million migrant workers of China, and ....a country where as long as you pay you can beak the law (forget labor laws, pollution, and everything that comes with them) One of my friends has worked for 10 years in a petrochemical factory in a 3rd world country, they were dumping all the waste as certain hours, and after that, they would call the inspectors and they would give them, yeah, they would give them the samples of water that they have to test!!!

Apart from car manufacturers or electronics, low-cost manufacturing will never leave south asia and then only to head for Africa..
You simply need nothing more than a cheap workforce with no unions and a government that can be bribed for everything....or ...robots!  

Iphones, they could start manufacturing those in Mexico or Bulgaria, 1euro slippers...nope!


Start the timeline in December, don't forget about the US soldiers that bought the virus in November   , don't forget about the death of Li, and the hot pot celebrating the communist party achievements in Wuhan.


Hihi, stop here!
There are only 7 types of known IIP which is one of the 32 types of pneumonia by cause, compared to more than one thousand for infectious ones.
The simple fact they claimed that they discovered another non-transmiting one would have been a medical breakthrough!!!
We have silver that is not silver!!!!

Common, they have bullshiting us for months, and nobody trusts a thing they say. Well...except for some around here!

The fact that we really don't know what was the real cause of this COVID is very strange. A lot of conspiracy theories raise their understanding together with their information that supports the idea that this virus is not came genetic mutation from animals but rather a man made viruses. However many people around the world believe that this is not deliberated, but some people speculate that this is created by human as a biochemical weapon that engineered to to kill thousands or even a million people.

Low labor cost countries are also plagued by low labor productivity. Maybe instead of countries chasing low labor costs, they will continue a shift towards regional models in an attempt to cut down on local supply chain costs and tariffs. Mexico offers the best of both worlds, with better wage to productivity ratio than China, Vietnam, or India and also very low/no tariffs. It's a triple whammy when you consider its proximity to the US:


They did not say there was no human-to-human transmission. They said they had found "no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission" (yet) based on "preliminary investigations." https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152

The WHO actually informed the US and other countries of human-to-human transmission risk by January 10th. Western governments should have been addressing that risk absent confirmation, given SARS and MERS. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/who-cited-human-transmission-risk-in-january-despite-trump-claims

Let's look at the timeline of events.

• Li Wenliang's online chat room warning came on December 30th.
• The Pentagon was aware of growing reports of atypical pneumonia in Wuhan as of December 30th.
• China informed the WHO on December 31st about growing reports of atypical pneumonia of unknown origin.
• The CDC was officially informed on December 31st.
• Chinese doctors isolated the SARS-CoV-2 genome and identified it as a new coronavirus on January 7th, then began studying transmissibility.
• Thailand confirmed the first known case of the coronavirus outside China on January 13th.

Keep in mind, this was an unknown pathogen, never seen before in the world. There are millions of atypical pneumonia cases per year in China. Because of that, it would have been very difficult to recognize the possibility of novel infectious pathogen until a sufficiently large surge of cases triggered detection. The first cluster of cases' apparent relation to the Wuhan Seafood Market initially made it appear the outbreak was foodborne.

We now know the corona virus is characterized by asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic viral shedding by much of the infected population for long periods. Up to 14 day incubation time! This made it even harder to detect before it had already widely spread. This is why there was an epic failure to contain it all over the world, including but not limited to China. We also know the coronavirus was circulating in other countries by very early January.

It's tempting to play the blame game but that's a really compressed timeline for us to assume any other outcome was possible since the pathogen was still unidentified and transmissibility unknown in early January. For countries like the US who were grossly unprepared and didn't heed any of the warnings anyway, it's hard to believe they could have stopped it regardless of what happened in China.

There is a prevailing assumption that China could have prevented the pandemic after the outbreak occurred. I think that's naive, given everything we now know. Did China make mistakes, could they have been more forthright? Absolutely! That doesn't change the fact that the pathogen had already widely spread (beyond China) before China had even begun to understand it. At that point, western countries still did almost nothing to stop its spread until national epidemics had already appeared.

China is not on lockdown because if they are that means it would look like they are still carrying the virus and that would prevent them from selling stuff which they have to do in order to keep feeding billions of people, so they are making it look like everything is doing great in order sell stuff.

We all know wet market is real, there is also genocide going on, and saying something bad about the government will get you and your family killed, a ton of stuff are hushed hushed in China that the world is not speaking, not much you can do about it when politicians let it be to not anger their Chinese rich friends who provide them with cheap stuff.

Moreover people are idiots, that is why lockdowns are getting more relaxed, and I actually support it, idiots who will go outside will die, smart people who stay inside will live, Darwinism wins in the end.

Oh , really...
The first case, 1 December, nothing....doctors that dared to say anything were silenced, 30 December although they had hundred of cases they reported to the WHO there is no human to human transmission. 10 days later, they retracted that and said it is contagious.
Let's say all this is because it was something new, they didn't have a clue, but here is one that maybe will make you see things in a different way:


Oh, so if this bs wouldn't have happened in the first place there wouldn't have been any need for other measures to show how powerful and dedicated the CCP is.
Now back to the economic view, since we're in the Economic sections and not P&S


Browsing through the news and reading the names of the ones impacted by this seems like China managed to shot itself in the foot, although with one nice ricochet.

There will be no de-chinafication, nothing on that scale will happen because countries will try to bribe the industry back to Europe and Us.
This is daydreaming, but something pretty interesting might come out of this whole mess.

During a crisis, the middle class is the one getting the short straw, and this is the main target of Chinese exports. The poor already don't have that money to spend, the luxury sector thrives even during these times as rich people losing half of their money means they can only buy 20 private jets, not 10 and most of their merchandise is not Chinese.
With demand for cheaper stuff, there will be demand for cheaper labor, Bangladesh is already closing in on garment exports competing with China, Malaysia is becoming a leader in rubber and latex products, they are already the largest condom and gloves manufacturers, they are producing tons of other petrochemical products, Vietnam is also producing a lot of stuff from cheap plastic items to clothes and shoes for western brands, and they all do it cheaper.  And then...there is India!!!

With the demand split between upper products and cheap as possible junk, China who has tried for years to position itself in the middle and trying to increase wages to stimulate internal consume might get caught on the wrong foot.

It won't be a case of patriotism or of racist thinking but more based on costs.
And for quite a few years China is not that attractive anymore, with even more pressure applied I can see their leaders banging their head against the GWC till it turns to ruble for how they handled this.

 

Please, I hope they be sincere and not to make substance that be dangerous to human being and society too. The world is already facing instability in every area. We want a sincere vaccine and good for every continent of the world.

China makes vaccines for the corona virus, scientists there test vaccines for volunteers, and it seems the US also doesn't want to lose to China and makes the corona vaccine.
these two countries are CHINA and the US, competing to make covid-19 vaccines that are safe for the human body,


California, Florida, Texas, Arizona, Colorado, Montana, Washington, Tennessee, and Illinois saw protesters gather in large numbers - many who did not practice social distance or followed government guidelines intended to prevent the spread of the corona virus - demanding that their governor reopen states.
news source https://www.newsweek.com/protest-lockdown-stay-home-orders-coronavirus-covid-19-texas-california-1498897

I guess it is not worth comparing China and Italy or Spain. The first ever COVID-19 case was in China. Where specifically in Wuhan it actually originated, I know not, but that type of corona virus was novel. It was not recorded in any book yet. Therefore, China was facing something new. It didn't have any clue at first. It had to familiarize itself with the enemy while already facing it. They started from scratch. When the spread of the virus reached Italy and Spain, it was not a completely strange virus anymore. Somehow, the cases in China have already taught them a lot.


How about this: if the government wouldn't have lied nothing would have happened?