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Topic: Oklahoma will charge homeowners who generate their own power (Read 1834 times)

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
The Spanish solar taxes.etc were imposed by the Socialist government (led by PSOE). This is not an one-off incident. They created many similar crazy taxes. No wonder they were demolished during the 2011 elections.

In the interests of maximum efficiency....

I can't see a problem with taxing people who buy and use INEFFICIENT types of power generating equipment.   This would include numerous styles of so called "green or renewable" energy implementations.   PV solar has gotten much more efficient, thus it might be taxed nominally.

Penalize buying into a fad, essentially.  But maybe that's got disadvantages too, as it would restrict the natural growth of new energy sources.  

You can't see a problem with interfering with the free market and then funding a bureaucracy that never shrinks (until it implodes as Rome did from 1.3 million to 30,000 population)?

Tax by definition is corruption.

Until you socialists figure that out, you will always doom society to repeat the megadeath, totalitarian end games of repeating bouts of collectivism.

When will you learn that top-down planning does not anneal?

There was no real free market in the energy sector in Spain from the start.
Factories were forced to buy a certain amount of green energy while solar and wind suppliers got an insane amount of government subsides via the green certificates.

This whole thing happened also in my country. The result? My electric bill went almost 75% because of those green but rather inefficient systems.

And the worst thing is that you have to maintain also the traditional ways of producing energy (coal/oil/gas) on standby any moment if ut's night and the winds stops.

So a coal plant will have the same maintenance cost but with less than half of the real production.
It's like forcing an air line to fly half of it's flights with 10 passengers. And forcing the rest of them to go by bus.

Quote
The problem is perhaps best illustrated by the renewables sector. The Zapatero government created a series of premiums and subsidies to give solar, wind and biomass technologies a start. But even producers accept that this approach has hindered rather than helped. "I agree that things got out of control in the solar sector," says Jorge Morales, who owns a plant producing solar energy. "But that is just one line in a book filled with idiocies and scandals."

The amount was set by consulting bodies such as the CNE, but the legislation covering payment was vague, meaning that solar energy capacity quickly reached 2,900 megawatts, instead of the 400 initially proposed.


Private, small-scale investors were encouraged to buy into solar energy parks, although speculators looking to move their money out of construction also moved in. The result was a surplus of very expensive energy. To make matters worse, the government slammed the brakes on a sector that had already cost the taxpayer billions of euros.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
The Spanish solar taxes.etc were imposed by the Socialist government (led by PSOE). This is not an one-off incident. They created many similar crazy taxes. No wonder they were demolished during the 2011 elections.

In the interests of maximum efficiency....

I can't see a problem with taxing people who buy and use INEFFICIENT types of power generating equipment.   This would include numerous styles of so called "green or renewable" energy implementations.   PV solar has gotten much more efficient, thus it might be taxed nominally.

Penalize buying into a fad, essentially.  But maybe that's got disadvantages too, as it would restrict the natural growth of new energy sources.  

You can't see a problem with interfering with the free market and then funding a bureaucracy that never shrinks (until it implodes as Rome did from 1.3 million to 30,000 population)?

Tax by definition is corruption.

Until you socialists figure that out, you will always doom society to repeat the megadeath, totalitarian end games of repeating bouts of collectivism.

When will you learn that top-down planning does not anneal?
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
In the interests of maximum efficiency....

I can't see a problem with taxing people who buy and use INEFFICIENT types of power generating equipment.   This would include numerous styles of so called "green or renewable" energy implementations.   PV solar has gotten much more efficient, thus it might be taxed nominally.

Do you support nuclear energy?

In my opinion, nuclear energy is the greenest, cheapest and the most efficient form of energy available. Much better than burning millions of tons of coal or building massive dams across the major rivers.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
The Spanish solar taxes.etc were imposed by the Socialist government (led by PSOE). This is not an one-off incident. They created many similar crazy taxes. No wonder they were demolished during the 2011 elections.

In the interests of maximum efficiency....

I can't see a problem with taxing people who buy and use INEFFICIENT types of power generating equipment.   This would include numerous styles of so called "green or renewable" energy implementations.   PV solar has gotten much more efficient, thus it might be taxed nominally.

Penalize buying into a fad, essentially.  But maybe that's got disadvantages too, as it would restrict the natural growth of new energy sources.  
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
And another socialist government was installed. All parties are socialist these days. There is no such thing as a "small government" pro-local governments party.

Ban everything, including breathing because it exhales man-made global warming. And the body produces energy autonomously from food, so we need to tax that.

Cross posting because I think this is indicative of Dark Enlightenment philosophy on the utility of government (or more generally any top-down authority)...

It'd definitely be good if we insured there were no new species come in and take over and flourish while old species died.

Wait....none of us would be around then...

I'm awaiting a CO2 tax effectively banning breathing and a consumer protection law banning death.

Heck let's just ban everything. Let's ban banning. Let's ban banning banning. And ban banning banning banning banning banning. Do you see now my theory of everything w.r.t. unbounded recursion.


legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
The Spanish solar taxes.etc were imposed by the Socialist government (led by PSOE). This is not an one-off incident. They created many similar crazy taxes. No wonder they were demolished during the 2011 elections.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
They got jealous because Spain taxes sunlight too.

The slide into the latter stages of Fascism is underway. Totalitarianism follows.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Thanks Wilikon. Just wanted to highlight a couple of points for those who don't grasp how much of an issue this really is... But in their defense, the OK article is purposely brief and terribly written. But that's all part of the plan; confusion so you don't pay attention to what's really going on.

As a reminder this is not new and not just happening in this US state.

Published: 21 Aug 2013

http://www.thelocal.es/20130821/spanish-solar-law-hits-international-headlines

"Spain is now attempting to scale back the use of solar panels – the use of which they have encouraged and subsidized over the last decade – by imposing a tax on those who use the panels."

Private individuals who fail to hook their solar panels up to the national grid to be metered and taxed could face fines of up to €30 million ($40 million) under the new law.

I suppose those of us thinking about installing solar panels need to hurry and jump on the bandwagon before this becomes a nationwide control.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
You say: "You don't want to depend on the electric company , just stay with your solar panel and wind turbine and rely on your batteries." I think what you're failing to realize is that this bill will strip this option away from solar power users. Their excuse is simple: they have to regulate solar power users to prevent them from becoming little power houses of their own, no matter how small the competition. Imagine a neighborhood producing power for their entire community with a mini wind turbine, completely independent of the electric company. They can't and won't have that.

Does it make it little more sense now?
How the hell can they prevent this with this bill?

I'm installing a solar panel and I don't connect to the grid. What can they bill me? On what? How much?

Exactly!!! You know the answer yourself but for some reason it's not clicking... You would be grandfathered in and not have to pay the surcharge because, like I said, you're not connected to the grid! Think outside of what's written here. Under this bill, new systems (future date) will be connected to the grid (with some metered device obviously); a requirement. That's how it'll be prevented!

Damn, I don't own a solar powered system or know know much about the subject matter, but I at least have some sense about how this would impact consumers. You on the other hand, need to get a better understanding it as you own one.

If this doesn't do it for you, I'm not sure what will. I can't explain it any more simpler.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 514
Maybe we should read the actual text of the bill?
There it is:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2013-14%20ENR/SB/SB1456%20ENR.PDF

Did that but they've lost me at:

Quote
B. No public utility retail electric supplier shall increase
rates charged or enforce a surcharge on the basis of the use or
installation of a solar energy device by a consumer
above that
required to recover the full costs necessary to serve customers who
install distributed generation on the customer side of the meter
after the effective date of this act.
If you install solar panels that are connected to the grid then you have to pay any extra costs the power company may have.
You can't be subsidized by other customers from the same customer class.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
minds.com/Wilikon


As a reminder this is not new and not just happening in this US state.

Published: 21 Aug 2013

http://www.thelocal.es/20130821/spanish-solar-law-hits-international-headlines

A new tax on solar power introduced two weeks ago by the Spanish government has been described as "ludicrous" and "stupid" in two leading international publications.

US business and finance magazine Forbes pulled no punches in an article titled, "Out of ideas and in debt, Spain sets sights on taxing the sun".

It pointed out that Spain "is one of the top countries in the world with respect to installed photovoltaic (PV) solar energy capacity."

But the author took an incredulous tone and noted: "Spain is now attempting to scale back the use of solar panels – the use of which they have encouraged and subsidized over the last decade – by imposing a tax on those who use the panels."

She added: "You get the feeling that government officials were out of ideas, stared up at the sky one day and thought, 'I’ve got it! We’ll tax the sun!'"

Australia's Business Spectator published a story on the same subject on Wednesday under the headline, "Spain's solar stupidity".

It said: "Imposed by decree, the reform aims to raise money for tackling a €26 billion debt to power producers which the state has built up over the years in regulating energy costs and prices."

The article quoted Industry Minister Jose Manuel Soria who introduced the law as saying, "I support 'autoconsumo' [independent power generation by households]... but the power system has infrastructure, grids that the rest of us Spaniards who are in the system have to pay for. And we pay for it through our electricity bill."

Both articles also quoted Teresa Ribera, who served as secretary of state for the environment under the former Socialist administration.

She responded to Soria's statement, saying: "It's like asking cyclists to pay a levy to keep open the petrol stations they don't use."

Now a senior adviser to the Paris-based Institute for Sustainable Development and International Relations (IDDRI), Ribera said the law was "illogical in terms of energy efficiency and costs" and "a serious invitation by the government for citizens to become anti-system."

Business Spectator interviewed people who plan to ignore the new law, including Sergio Pomar, chief executive of energy-efficient installation firm INEL.

He said: "If I spend €600 to install solar panels and get fined €6 million let the judge decide."

Private individuals who fail to hook their solar panels up to the national grid to be metered and taxed could face fines of up to €30 million ($40 million) under the new law.

Forbes magazine wrote: "It seems ludicrous."



Spaniards rebel against solar panel levy

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/spain-energy-idUSL6N0GE1WR20130814

* Spain imposes solar panel levy under energy reform

* Rebels risk fines of up to 30 million euros

* Reforms threaten Spain meeting 2020 EU renewable energy goal

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
Maybe we should read the actual text of the bill?
There it is:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2013-14%20ENR/SB/SB1456%20ENR.PDF

Did that but they've lost me at:

Quote
B. No public utility retail electric supplier shall increase
rates charged or enforce a surcharge on the basis of the use or
installation of a solar energy device by a consumer
above that
required to recover the full costs necessary to serve customers who
install distributed generation on the customer side of the meter
after the effective date of this act.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 514
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust


You say: "You don't want to depend on the electric company , just stay with your solar panel and wind turbine and rely on your batteries." I think what you're failing to realize is that this bill will strip this option away from solar power users. Their excuse is simple: they have to regulate solar power users to prevent them from becoming little power houses of their own, no matter how small the competition. Imagine a neighborhood producing power for their entire community with a mini wind turbine, completely independent of the electric company. They can't and won't have that.

Does it make it little more sense now?

How the hell can they prevent this with this bill?

I'm installing a solar panel and I don't connect to the grid. What can they bill me? On what? How much?

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
So it'a surcharge for people who install those and wish to sell back into the grid their extra energy. And it's a charge when you install this not , one time only.

I really think this was blown out of proportion

No it wasn't... It's not a one time fee, it's monthly.

The article says: "the surcharge is needed to recover some of the infrastructure costs to send excess electricity safely from distributed generation back to the grid."

That's saying that the electric company is charging a fee to reroute the extra power the system produces; this would be monthly. They're doing this to prevent people from selling power: "utilities need the new surcharge to prevent customers who can’t afford the installation costs of distributed generation from subsidizing customers who have the systems installed." It says nothing about selling power back into the grid, the electric company is taking it!

Makes sense now?
 
From my point of view , as a customer in a country in which because of this new eco friendly hype and price of those green certificates my bill has almost doubled in less than 3 years..

Why do you want to sell your extra power back into the grid? For profit right? So , pay the damn tax if you want to get more money.

You don't want to depend on the electric company , just stay with your solar panel and wind turbine and rely on your batteries.

Besides , you said it was monthly... so how is that "Customers who already have those systems installed wouldn't be affected by the bill" possible ?

I'm glad you asked... Smiley

People who already have a solar powered system installed are grandfathered because they're not attached to the electric company's grid so the power company can't charge them for the 'excess' power they produce. Read the article again and allow it to soak in - 'Utility customers who want to install rooftop solar panels or small wind turbines could face extra charges on their bills ' If this were a one time 'set up' fee so to speak, the sentence would have read: 'Utility customers who want to install rooftop solar panels or small wind turbines could face extra charges on their bill.' The plural use of bills vice bill is the first indication this isn't a one time charge. Also, look at your utility bills. Utility companies use the term surcharge to describe recurring monthly charges, one time fees are just that, a fee. Oh, not to mention, the article actually says: "It sets up a process at the Oklahoma Corporation Commission to establish a separate customer class and monthly surcharge for distributed generation such as rooftop solar or small wind turbines." Guess it really is a monthly charge.

Also, people who actually have these systems could care less about selling power back into the grid for a profit. Their profit would be in the form of savings! If anything, you'd profit by selling the power to your neighbor, which is what they're trying to prevent with this bill.

The whole point is to free oneself from the power companies, not have your power counted as it leaves your generator back to the power company. Think about it... that's how the electric company will charge you, a metered approach. Those who already have a solar powered system aren't metered so they can't be regulated. I wouldn't be surprised if the surcharge to put your excess power back into the grid isn't higher per kw than the actual cost if you were to using theirs. Their point for the giant power houses is to make it non-economical for you, as a consumer, to own a solar powered system.

Electric companies will fight tooth and nail so that we have to depend on them for electricity. They'd be out of business if they didn't find a way to charge people for solar power because more and more people are adopting it. It's not nearly as expensive as it was several years ago, and it doesn't take a genius to build one. And rest assure, this won't be an inexpensive tax. They have to make it undesirable for you, the consumer, to even think about it.

You say: "You don't want to depend on the electric company , just stay with your solar panel and wind turbine and rely on your batteries." I think what you're failing to realize is that this bill will strip this option away from solar power users. Their excuse is simple: they have to regulate solar power users to prevent them from becoming little power houses of their own, no matter how small the competition. Imagine a neighborhood producing power for their entire community with a mini wind turbine, completely independent of the electric company. They can't and won't have that.

Does it make it little more sense now?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
So it'a surcharge for people who install those and wish to sell back into the grid their extra energy. And it's a charge when you install this not , one time only.

I really think this was blown out of proportion

No it wasn't... It's not a one time fee, it's monthly.

The article says: "the surcharge is needed to recover some of the infrastructure costs to send excess electricity safely from distributed generation back to the grid."

That's saying that the electric company is charging a fee to reroute the extra power the system produces; this would be monthly. They're doing this to prevent people from selling power: "utilities need the new surcharge to prevent customers who can’t afford the installation costs of distributed generation from subsidizing customers who have the systems installed." It says nothing about selling power back into the grid, the electric company is taking it!

Makes sense now?
 

From my point of view , as a customer in a country in which because of this new eco friendly hype and price of those green certificates my bill has almost doubled in less than 3 years..

Why do you want to sell your extra power back into the grid? For profit right? So , pay the damn tax if you want to get more money.

You don't want to depend on the electric company , just stay with your solar panel and wind turbine and rely on your batteries.

Besides , you said it was monthly... so how is that "Customers who already have those systems installed wouldn't be affected by the bill" possible ?

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
So you run completely and efficiently off of solar/wind, no charges?

Except the monthly surcharge the electric company will throw at you to 'handle' your excess electricity. It wouldn't surprise me if they charge per kw, probably half of what they charge to give you power. In order words, you may not even realize a true savings. Last thing the big electric co-ops want us to do is reduce our dependency on them. So naturally they're going to do whatever they can so installing solar power systems aren't an attractive alternative.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
So it'a surcharge for people who install those and wish to sell back into the grid their extra energy. And it's a charge when you install this not , one time only.

I really think this was blown out of proportion

No it wasn't... It's not a one time fee, it's monthly.

The article says: "the surcharge is needed to recover some of the infrastructure costs to send excess electricity safely from distributed generation back to the grid."

That's saying that the electric company is charging a fee to reroute the extra power the system produces; this would be monthly. They're doing this to prevent people from selling power: "utilities need the new surcharge to prevent customers who can’t afford the installation costs of distributed generation from subsidizing customers who have the systems installed." It says nothing about selling power back into the grid, the electric company is taking it!

Makes sense now?
 
member
Activity: 84
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PM for journalist,typing,and data entry services.
So you run completely and efficiently off of solar/wind, no charges?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
Sorry wilikon , but why did you cut a few very important parts of the article:


First the subtitle is:

A bill that would allow regulated electric utilities to impose a surcharge on customers who install rooftop solar panels or small wind turbines passed the Oklahoma House of Representatives on Monday.

So it'a surcharge for people who install those and wish to sell back into the grid their extra energy. And it's a charge when you install this not , one time only.

Also , this:

Quote
Customers who already have those systems installed wouldn't be affected by the bill. It also wouldn't apply to electric cooperatives, which aren't regulated by the Corporation Commission. The new tariffs for distributed generation would start by the end of 2015.

I really think this was blown out of proportion
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