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Topic: on average, how much HD space does bitcoin-qt consume per day - page 2. (Read 13995 times)

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
Stop complaining about features we don't have yet (especially when some of those features we do have). Bitcoin is still in beta, not even version 1.0 yet.

You misunderstand me (not complaining about lack of features) and agree with me at the same time.

Bitcoin needs a much more decentralised dev. structure before it comes out of beta or it will collapse in heap when the training wheels come off. At a minimum, we need a true blue team to compete, so the reds don't miss something or go off on a tangential group-think phase, just imho. Green, yellow and purples would be preferable but hey. There is also going to be too much pressure on too few brilliant, young minds, they'll blow, seen it a few times and its ugly. That is just the technological side, throw in hundreds of millions of money to the brew and it gets pretty heady ...

Read this to get a feel for some of the challenges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
You just showed with this bad attempt of irony that you're not really aware about SPV.
BitcoinJ is a SPV node, which already uses bloom filters. MultiBit and Android Wallet are two clients which use BitcoinJ.

Oh wait, you mean the java client put out by none other than Mike Hearn, the bitcoin dev. who is pushing hardest to raise the block limits, is really the only SPV implementation out there?

Gosh, wait is that a coincidence or irony, or you got me confused with someone else?

There's also a C client being developed, but, really, if there is basic code for it already, why reinvent the wheel?

Oh, and the actual clients that use BitcoinJ are quite different, with different features and usability. SPV mode is also currently being developed for the official Bitcoin-qt client. The new database format and bloom features that were released in version 0.8 were just the first steps for that process. Eventually, people will be able to install the official client, be able to use it within a few minutes as it downloads just the data relevant to its addresses, and if they have the hard drive space, be able to turn on the option to download the entire blockchain in the background. Stop complaining about features we don't have yet (especially when some of those features we do have). Bitcoin is still in beta, not even version 1.0 yet.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
You just showed with this bad attempt of irony that you're not really aware about SPV.
BitcoinJ is a SPV node, which already uses bloom filters. MultiBit and Android Wallet are two clients which use BitcoinJ.

Oh wait, you mean the java client put out by none other than Mike Hearn, the bitcoin dev. who is pushing hardest to raise the block limits, is really the only SPV implementation out there?

Gosh, wait is that a coincidence or irony, or you got me confused with someone else?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
Quote
Architecturally the system you describe is very similar to the modern banking system with high powered 'peers' upon whom the users are utterly dependent.  All that remains to be seen are what the ratio will be.  It is simply disingenuous to refer to it as a 'peer2peer' solution and retain any real meaning to the term.

If you've ever tried to set up a bank you'd know there is no comparison possible. A bank is not just a computer that tracks transactions, you know. And you can't just switch from one to another in a second or two.

In the modern western world 'banks' (usually understood by the masses to be consumer banks) are corporations and like all corporations it is their legal obligation to maximize shareholder value.  They happen to deal with currency as an artifact of their doing business, and in doing so make use of centralized computers which interact with the computers of their 'peers' and those of central banks and regulatory bodies.  I'm just making this up, so please feel free to correct me if you feel that I've mis-spoken.

Other corporations maximize shareholder value in other ways, but visibility into the interactions inherent in a currency system can be extremely valuable to them.  Hence significant interest in 'virtual currencies'.

One thing that does not at all maximize shareholder value is crossing the government or regulatory bodies, so it would be unwise to expect corporations to do so.

SPV mode is appropriate for people with hardware constraints that let them get almost-as-good security at much less cost. If you want the full security you can of course upgrade to use a full node.

As long as it is realistic for a fair fraction of the user base to be full peers I'm not concerned or unhappy.  This is, to me, incompatible with unlimited or heavy growth.  I am not super concerned about mining because to me seems to be something which can be isolated and the system will still remain 'open'.  If latency increase dramatically (due to near-monopolization of mining power by corporations) that still will not preclude the use of Bitcoin as a reserve store of value.

My concern is that the solution will be grown enough such that full peers will require such specialized and expensive hardware and network connectivity that it will be practical for them to be isolated, controlled, and made inaccessible from large swaths of users through DPI and packet filtering.  Eventually.

I am also concerned that the business intelligence value of being able to closely monitor economic activity in a dominant currency solution will far exceed the costs of operation yielding a situation where it is provided as a 'free' service in the same vein as we see with other forms of communication over the internet these days.  This will greatly disrupt some of the economic incentives which are supposed to keep the system in balance.  Or at least 'supposed' by me to be part of the design.

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
You just showed with this bad attempt of irony that you're not really aware about SPV.
BitcoinJ is a SPV node, which already uses bloom filters. MultiBit and Android Wallet are two clients which use BitcoinJ.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Any ETA on when these mythical SPV node solutions will be hitting github?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1136
Quote
Architecturally the system you describe is very similar to the modern banking system with high powered 'peers' upon whom the users are utterly dependent.  All that remains to be seen are what the ratio will be.  It is simply disingenuous to refer to it as a 'peer2peer' solution and retain any real meaning to the term.

If you've ever tried to set up a bank you'd know there is no comparison possible. A bank is not just a computer that tracks transactions, you know. And you can't just switch from one to another in a second or two.

SPV mode is appropriate for people with hardware constraints that let them get almost-as-good security at much less cost. If you want the full security you can of course upgrade to use a full node.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
... why are guys going to such lengths to obfuscate the dangers of not running your own full node I wonder?

We're not "obfuscating" anything.
The danger you mention is comparable to the danger of running a piece of open source software without having previously read the entire source code and acquired a full understanding of how it works, before trusting to run it on your wallet.dat.

Thankfully, we can rest assured that a large enough number of people have already made such validation, as it's open to anyone to do it. Any attempt to insert bogus data, either on the source or on the blockchain, will be quickly spot. In the case of running full nodes particularly, there will always be more people capable of doing it - and actually doing it - than there are people capable of fully understanding Bitcoin source code.

I agree with that Bitcoin Magazine article that says that in 20 years, everybody will be capable of running a full node. The blockchain grows linearly once the adoption rate stabilizes. Hardware resources grow exponentially.

Don't forget, SVP clients don't trust anyone either. They connect to different nodes and verify/transmit transactions from a few different nodes. If one is malicious, it will simply be ignored.

Precisely. It's extremely difficult to lie to a SPV node. You need to be the only one it connects to, and still all you'll manage to do is hide stuff from it, not "invent" fake transactions.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
Don't forget, SPV clients don't trust anyone either. They connect to different nodes and verify/transmit transactions from a few different nodes. If one is malicious, it will simply be ignored.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
Maybe, but then it wouldn't be the all bells and whistles "trust no-one currency" would it?

It must be paranoid by design ... oblivious to the human designer's subjective assessment of trust needed to function.

You're right Grin  But that blockchain is a pain to download, and having to catch up every day takes a while.  Some find it appropriate to sacrifice that "trust no-one" stasis for convenience.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
No need to back up the blockchain, there are already plenty of copies around the world.

You should really make the note that only the blockchain copy on your machine has been validated by your own machine ....

... why are guys going to such lengths to obfuscate the dangers of not running your own full node I wonder?

Not everyone is quite as paranoid Tongue

Maybe, but then it wouldn't be the all bells and whistles "trust no-one currency" would it?

It must be paranoid by design ... oblivious to the human designer's subjective assessment of trust needed to function.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
Quote
No need to back up the blockchain, there are already plenty of copies around the world.

You should really make the note that only the blockchain copy on your machine has been validated by your own machine ....

... why are guys going to such lengths to obfuscate the dangers of not running your own full node I wonder?

Not everyone is quite as paranoid Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
No need to back up the blockchain, there are already plenty of copies around the world.

You should really make the note that only the blockchain copy on your machine has been validated by your own machine ....

... why are guys going to such lengths to obfuscate the dangers of not running your own full node I wonder?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
Eventually most users will be on SPV wallets, that was always the plan (see Satoshi's paper).

It was one of the less good ideas in my opinion.

This isn't the same as banking, not even remotely close. For one, malicious peers are very limited in what they can do to SPV clients. They don't validate the chain contents, so a miner can make an SPV client temporarily see a bogus view of the world for as long as they can outrun the network. But once they fall behind, the SPV client will switch back to the best valid chain and get back in sync with reality.

Architecturally the system you describe is very similar to the modern banking system with high powered 'peers' upon whom the users are utterly dependent.  All that remains to be seen are what the ratio will be.  It is simply disingenuous to refer to it as a 'peer2peer' solution and retain any real meaning to the term.

And obviously, remote nodes cannot control what you do with your money.

Oh?  I am pretty sure that it was you yourself that came up with one of my favorite lines.  Something like when there is sufficient centralization, there would be "no real difference between taking someones money and keeping them from spending it for 20 years."

legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1136
Eventually most users will be on SPV wallets, that was always the plan (see Satoshi's paper).

This isn't the same as banking, not even remotely close. For one, malicious peers are very limited in what they can do to SPV clients. They don't validate the chain contents, so a miner can make an SPV client temporarily see a bogus view of the world for as long as they can outrun the network. But once they fall behind, the SPV client will switch back to the best valid chain and get back in sync with reality.

And obviously, remote nodes cannot control what you do with your money.

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
It only costs a bit over BTC3 to get 10TB nowadays  Wink

My 3rd to last bank paid me $150 to open, my 2nd to last paid me $125, and my last bank paid me $25

Spending $400 to open a bank account (wallet) is counter productive I think.

Wrong comparison. Blockchain.info costs $0 to open an account on. How much does it cost to buy a vault and start your own bank?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
Why would you classify and SPV client as a 'peer'?  It certainly does not seem to me to be a peer to a node holding a block chain, and as best I can tell does nothing whatsoever in terms of helping support the integrity of the network.

I meant it works in a p2p fashion, not in a client-server fashion, as it connects to multiple nodes. It's "decentralized" if you prefer.

The first sentence makes basically no sense at all in logical or technical terms.

As to the second sentence, I have a checkbook in my pocket and I can write checks to anyone no matter what bank they use.  I can also use any ATM I see (for an annoying but tolerable fee.)  A Bitcoin solution with a limited number of full nodes and a majority of users using SPV or thin client hacks such as electrum seems to me not much different than what we have today.  And likely pretty easy for corp/gov to clamp down on when they see fit, particularly if it threatens most geo-political unions which I imagine it could.

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
Why would you classify and SPV client as a 'peer'?  It certainly does not seem to me to be a peer to a node holding a block chain, and as best I can tell does nothing whatsoever in terms of helping support the integrity of the network.

I meant it works in a p2p fashion, not in a client-server fashion, as it connects to multiple nodes. It's "decentralized" if you prefer.
legendary
Activity: 1310
Merit: 1000
It only costs a bit over BTC3 to get 10TB nowadays  Wink

My 3rd to last bank paid me $150 to open, my 2nd to last paid me $125, and my last bank paid me $25

Spending $400 to open a bank account (wallet) is counter productive I think.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
...
And remember, for sending and receiving money safely, you can use a SVP client. Those require much less resources. You can run a full p2p SVP client on your phone right now.
...

Why would you classify and SPV client as a 'peer'?  It certainly does not seem to me to be a peer to a node holding a block chain, and as best I can tell does nothing whatsoever in terms of helping support the integrity of the network.

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