Topic: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? - page 43. (Read 9257 times)

junk memes in a tx can be aded to a block (random block index location) by anyone just wanting there transaction in a block. but pools still have to and should be validating and verifying content.

but the ordinals(spcial junk memes). is where junk memes are put into rare tx spending (recent block rewards spends (usually tx index 0 of a block reward spend). meaning a pool has decided to include it in a tx of their reward spending as thats what caseys ranking system is about
these types of extra special junk memes are called the ordinal inscriptions..

so a ordinal inscription (casey ranked junk meme)  as oppose to normal junk meme is more related to a special handling by a mining pool choosing to add such junk

this does make the mining pool more legally liable to distributing illegal pictures if thats what one of these ordinals is

so pools need to truly be careful what crap they throw into their block templates when collating transactions

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to all the idiots that think they can plead ignorant to the law and pleas ignorant to certain things will mean that mining pools can get away with it..
ignorance is not a defence

and to all those that think it is. you will only find that out, after caught, arrested, charged, given a hearing date, pleading innocent and then going to trial where at trial is the only real place you can scram your ignorance as a defence.. which is about 6-12 months too late when your life has been uprooted by authorities getting involved in your life.

so try and learn a few laws
and stop trying to pretend mining pools can get away with things just becasue ignorant user says so
its better for mining pools to be on the watch for preventing doing things that put themselves at risk, rather than listen to idiots telling mining pools "it dont matter, so go ahead commit a crime" the idiot ignorant army of users wont pay the mining pool legal bills and bail while you try to fight it

Well, in 2018 there was some media buzz about this. And even if the picture doesn't count, the child pornography links were already illegal in most jurisdictions. So I'm sure some lawmakers are already aware of that.

There are however situations which are similar and where there are court decisions, mainly about ISPs. There was also a similar discussion about Freenet and other decentralized P2P networks where users store encrypted unknown data from others on their computers. And it's very different from a torrent, where the torrent seeder has the intent to distribute an illegal file.

You're of course right that miners will "catch" very few illegal stuff uploaders. But if someone is that fool, they'd be better to report it.

Ordinals is a fancy word for bitcoin transactions that contain garbage in them. Anybody can create a transaction and you don't need to run a full node to create or broadcast them to the network.

By sender, you mean the guys running Bitcoin nodes. From what I've read they are the ones who can only create ordinals?

Community is divided I guess about this Ordinals. While the other half find Ordinals as another use case the other half I guess find Ordinals unnecessary as it increases network fees and is a waste of block space.

Exactly. But this has been a plague that has infected the cryptocurrency scene mainly from 2017 when the ICO scams started becoming very popular and we had a mania for a while. Ever since then a certain part of the community is convinced that creating useless tokens is a real "utility" that helps adoption!

I tried to simplify it here, maybe that helps.
In short there is nothing attached to the "satoshis" you receive, they are inside the witness of the transaction the sender creates and shouldn't concern you in any way. It also has nothing to do with the amount (or satoshis) regardless of what the advertisers say (eg. "rare and exotic sats"), it is just an arbitrary data pushed to the witness stack.

no
the whole scheme is
that a guy is ranking sats.. (one scheme)
  - eg the first spend of a bitcoin coinbase reward is ranked higher then the [whatever]th spend for that coinreward split

and secondly/separately..(another scheme) if you put a meme into the witness(signature) area of a tx, where that said tx also contains a rare sat (EG "the first sat spent of a block reward(his ranking scheme)).. then that meme is super super rare

his comments about "put into first sat"
is him defining a tx that spends the first sat of a block reward. it has nothing to do with putting data into the 'output value field' of a tx

its a tx containing both a rare sat(in the output value area).. and a meme(in the signature area) of the same tx is deemed then super rare

Its absolutely about freedom, the freedom to transact, which is one of the things bitcoin is supposed to be all about.


On the contrary, its encouraged some people to run full nodes & several more to care about bitcoin for the first time.


This is fair but one man's spam is another man's steak. So far its proved to be but a minor inconvenience, with the mempool slightly busier than normal. Whether it will become a long-lasting problem remains to be seen.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-size.html#1y
https://mempool.observer/

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I don't own a single ordinal. I own a tiny amount of a fractionalized representation of an ordinal on Counterparty. I couldn't care less less whether people buy them or not. Its just entertaining to watch people like you get their panties in a bunch over it instead of acknowledge you are powerless to actually do anything about it.

Pretty much everything you said is just you doing what you normally do which is to change the argument instead of admit you are wrong. Its not worth addressing. Though the moral reprimand is a nice touch. Cheers.

So i am not 100 on how this all works, but do i also have to be watching out for what's on Sats that i receive?
As i have understood it, had it explained to me: An Ordinal is all extra data on each Sat?

you say no to all of these
ok:
so lets see some examples of your promoting and involvement in the meme spam
thats just two posts.. i seen far more

just look at the amount of posts where you have memes in them, even your avatar is a meme
so if you cant recognise that YOU are promoting memes in bitcoin. its you thats unhinged

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bitcoins ethos is consensus not permissionless
consent of the utxo owner by their signature proving consent to move funds
consent of the network that data complies with rules the majority of network consent to agree to

softening those rules softening the need of consent and verification is BAD for bitcoin

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as for legality (much like drugs)
possession can be fought off with the right lawyer to express that it was not your fault(motive/intent) to have data on your computer.. emphasis on the need a good lawyer

distributing is a bigger crime. thus mining pools have a higher risk on their heads.
learn common sense

stop trying to even suggest the thought that people should be free and un-consequentially able to put porn onto the blockchain

you selfish man who doesnt care about bitcoins security or integrity, as long as you can make money out of other people. even if it causes others to be at a loss or harm due to your self-greed mindset

Like i said the point is to make it more expensive/annoying for spam than genuine transactions, nobody expects perfection. People don't have time to be inspecting spam and determine its "legality", that's all beyond the point. There is no good or bad spam, its spam when its not actual transactions; make it hard and expensive for them.

Rule relaxing seems to have made it easier for spammers, as we have seen here, and this should be addressed somehow. It IS a problem.

In the meantime, the transaction i started the 11th, is still waiting in line while Ordinals spam keeps cutting the line...

Yeah i dived right into a new pool here from Twitter and Reddit where people are cheering over this as the next great thing in the universe. And it seams mostly fueled by hope of selling overpriced jpg's to other fools who hope to do the same thing. And nobody seams to be thinking any further than that.

"Absolute freedom is a dual-edged sword." Add enough edges and you got a steel bar instead of a sword.

This is not necessary and its not about freedom, Its not helping adoption, It may be a giant wall towards adoption and people like Warren will have an absolute field day if she finds out about something compromising like what i was suggesting. You cant pretend like it doesn't matter, the average Joe is easily talked into another narrative.
I don't care about pumps or going to $100k I just want it to work and work smoothly without any of the spam/junk

But miner wouldn't know personal information of that fool unless he/she contact miners directly (e.g. send email to miner from gmail). In most cases, miner only can obtain IP address of node which re-broadcast that transaction.


Unfortunately all of the already happen far before Ordinal exist. See these article,
https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoins-blockchain-contains-child-abuse-images-dark-web-links-and-wikileaks-857335
https://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html#ref14


I agree. But on technical level it's impossible to ensure Bitcoin only can be used as currency/payment method while remain decentralized/permissionless.

This is your first post on the forum so its therefore the first time you've mentioned it, here anyway... and the last 2-3 pages of this thread have been all about this subject.

Much like when people upload shitty material to the darknet, you can't stop them, you can only hope they will be moderated... unless you want the government to intervene and shut down some servers.

Absolute freedom is a dual-edged sword.

Im really concerned about child pornography, lets say some ones daughter being raped and murdered ending up on Bitcoin. Or racism or something that would make a nation say absolutely no to Bitcoin. Take the story of the Tank man on Tiananmen in China, Gov secrets. That will not be accepted when they see that this network will spread truth.
While it can be used for both good and evil i don't think its a fight that Bitcoin should get into. Having Gov's fighting Bitcoin unnecessarily and shoveling shit on its name is not helping Bitcoin in anyway.
Bitcoin should be good at one thing and one thing only. Truth can be spread other ways or the same way but not on Bitcoin.
I hope i have understood Ordinals wrong and this is not possible but i don't see how it wouldn't be.
Nobody seams to be talking about it or as soon as i mention it. Its met with silence.

Exactly. It is an unreasonable expectation that every miner should have to review the contents of all nonstandard/encoded transaction data waiting in the mempool before adding those transactions to a block.

Illicit material in encoded image form (not just links) has been added to the blockchain since 2013 -- they were just much smaller images; the debate has been ongoing since at least then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1akyy4/what_happens_if_someone_inserts_illegal_content/


lol & no to all of this. you are laughably unhinged.

that's what you hope might be the case but that's something courts have to decide. not bitcoin users or community. it all depends how popular ordinals gets. the more popular it gets then the more attention it might attract from lawmakers. each jurisdiction might have it's own laws but one thing is for sure that no matter where someone lives, if the usa has a law against it then it will probably apply to them.  

or i guess in this naive alternate view of things, lawmakers will just turn the other cheek while acknowledging that bitcoin now stores porno but there's nothing that can be done about it so we might as well pretend it doesn't exist...

imagine some fool uploading illegal porno to ordinals that doesn't use a fake ip. 

Maybe you're right and it isn't illegal if it's a "young woman". I've also no intention to investigate that issue further.

My point was going more into another direction: We can't rely on the hope that nobody would ever insert illegal data in the blockchain. Because as I wrote there are ways to do this without Taproot or Ordinals. And someone who wants to destroy Bitcoin could use whatever method, even those old methods from 2013 requiring fake addresses and a lot of block space.

I'm also sure that one who really wanted to do it could even insert whatever data in a blockchain without any scripting, like Monero (that's also an answer to @n0nce). One simply would use a combination of addresses, transactions and amounts which would encode the picture, text or whatever, and then build a protocol around it. Would consume lots of block space as it's very inefficient, but it remains possible. If the protocol prevents you from see the data directly like they appear on-chain, you would have to use a vanitygen-style trial-and-error approach which would be more expensive, but always possible.

That's why I cited Arvind Narayanan. The crucial word is "intent". If you are using Bitcoin for financial things, not decoding illegal data/files, and (as a miner) reporting to the authorities if you have some info about someone who is trying to insert such data in the blockchain (i.e. IP adresses) then you should be safe.

(And no, I'm not endorsing Ordinals on BTC, but I stay with the stance that it's not as problematic as some see it.)

we'll see.


I don't think that's what he meant. he meant that a website that displays ordinals has responsibility to filter out "bad content". otherwise they could get in trouble for it. and get their domain name taken away. or their web hosting suspended.  so only people outside of the reach of those type of things could ever put "everything" online. same as it has always been except in this particular case you can bypass all of that by downloading the blockchain yourself and viewing it directly. No one can censor stuff that goes on to the blockchain. even though franky wants miners to put into that role. i don't think they would appreciate having to do that task.

GM,

franky1, d5000, and others, thank you for your comments and clarifications. I just discovered that bitcointalk has "Child Boards" for legal issues, so perhaps this discussion should be moved to that board.

If I understood correctly, the first checkpoint in the timechain for filtering unwanted data (or data that can cause more harm than good) would be the miners themselves.

About nasty/illegal on the timechain I do an analogy to the ToR network (btw they have a good FAQ about the topic on their official website.)

So, to answer the OP's original question. Although I recognise that the value of the timechain extends beyond financial data (recalling Satoshi's epic genesis block message about using public money to bail out private banks), I believe that timechain layer one has more value if we limit ourselves to financial data and leave non-financial data to some sort of up layer.

Thanks everyone.

If that's the case, they should easily be able to back their statements by posting the block hashes. Knowing how media operates when it comes to Bitcoin and crypto, it would not surprise me if they stated it as fact, just because someone told them it is theoretically possible, or if it happened on another chain and they just attribute it to 'Bitcoin', because that pulls more views.
Generally, claiming anything being stored on the Bitcoin blockchain is one of the easiest things to prove; it is much harder to prove something like the correctness of a cryptographic algorithm or the existence of certain data on some company's server. As the ones putting out such accusation, they should also provide the proof.

Furthermore, if it was the case that someone already uploaded illegal material, we all know that it is not trivial to upload whole files into the blockchain. Technical users here may know how to do it, but there is no purpose-made application and mechanism specifically for uploading and forever storing any data to the blockchain, as well as for viewing it.

Only because something is possible, doesn't mean it should be done, and only because it has been done before, is not a justification to keep going and encouraging it. Civilization has done horrible things for centuries, and at certain points in time realized it was wrong and stopped doing it.

Seriously? You want to rely on decoding not being trivial as a means to avoid accountability? I could say the same about plain files on your disk. You also need a specialized program to open and view those (your preferred photo viewing application). On disk, it's just plain bytes. Exactly like using a photo application locally, someone can easily self-host ordinals.com or write a similar software that locally parses the blockchain and displays 'ordinals' pictures saved on it. Larry is actually right here.

I don't argue against censorship-resistant money. And I don't want censorship through miners. I honestly don't have a perfect solution right now, either, but I sure as hell won't encourage (ab)using Bitcoin as unfiltered cloud storage, forcing me to store anything that anyone pays a high enough amount for, on my own disks.
There are definitely cryptocurrencies where this is not possible, by heavily limiting the power of their scripting language, where (by design) something like multisig and payment channels are possible, but not arbitrary data storage. I am pretty sure that you can only do payments on Monero, for instance.