on what condition can people have fath for bitcoin just like for gold? - page 2.

IrishFutbol

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 01:02:58 PM

That's all correct if you can identify what's really true and what really constitutes progress. If you followed the truth of this forum starting two short years ago you would have already lost all of your money to MyBitcoin or Bitcoinica or GLBSE or Pirate@40 or on and on and on. If any other investment vehicle had this many problems so soon after introduction it would already be ancient history. Fanatical idealism is keeping Bitcoin alive.

Bitcoin isn't an investment vehicle. It's an asset that, when used properly, gives the ultimate control to the user.

Those "problems" you've listed are only problems because people ignore one simple rule: If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.

It's unfortunate that so many are willing to resort to traditional methods and give up control of their assets, but that should be a lesson for everyone else. Apparently many fail to learn from the mistakes of others.

It's also unfortunate that I am labeled as a fanatic because I simply want to retain control of my assets and not be persecuted for it.

Bitcoin does allow this kind of control, like nothing else in existence. So, don't expect it to become ancient history as long as people like me continue to value this property.

Lets say you're 100% correct.

People realize they want control / crypto > fiat.

Who's to say the answer is BitCoin? Society could easily realize "Hey, that other currency is much more innovative and superior, that will really be the future!", and rapidly turn Bitcoin from $600 to a memory.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Bitcoin shares some qualities with gold such as being scarce, fungible,etc.
it also has advantages over gold that should be obvious.

tim-tams

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You, Me, and BTC: *Your* Liberty & Bitcoin Podcast

We actually released an awesome podcast about almost this exact question just today! It's Episode 12 over at YouMeAndBTC.com. We're joined by a special guest host, Robert Michael from CoinStax.com, a new bullion dealer that exclusively accepts Bitcoin. We talk about a lot of these ideas because we're responding to a 14-point criticism of Bitcoin by a well-known gold bug, Franklin Sanders. I think it should interest all of you. Let us know what you think in the comments or here, thanks!

Peter R

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 01:02:58 PM

That's all correct if you can identify what's really true and what really constitutes progress. If you followed the truth of this forum starting two short years ago you would have already lost all of your money to MyBitcoin or Bitcoinica or GLBSE or Pirate@40 or on and on and on. If any other investment vehicle had this many problems so soon after introduction it would already be ancient history. Fanatical idealism is keeping Bitcoin alive.

I did two things:

A. I showed that according to the Quantity Theory of Money, real output (Q) can increase without an increase in the money supply (it requires falling price levels instead).

B. I discussed the idea of myth vs reality and presented my Theory of Dinosaurism.

You seem to agree that this is all true.

But I think you are also suggesting that "falling prices are bad" is some sort of truth, and that if we question this it represents "fanatical idealism." Is this correct?

All groups have shared myths including bitcointalk--you call this groupthink in your signature. Myths are part of being human and shape our society--they can help us or hinder us. For example, the "HODL" myth helps us overcome fear during outbreaks of FUD. So far this myth has been beneficial to its subscribers. "Deflation is bad" is another myth that was helpful in growing the economy after the Great Depression and World War II. I no longer subscribe to this myth, however.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: Peter R on March 20, 2014, 12:41:38 PM

People hang on tightly to our shared mythology--even very intelligent people. Letting go is frightening because it requires a reshaping of our interpretation of reality.

I'd like to present my Theory of Dinosaurism:

One becomes a dinosaur when their hard-wired brain no longer sees it as possible for the status quo to ever *really* change.

When Einstein published his ‘theory of relativity’ as a young man, it was met with doubt and criticism by his seniors. But it wasn’t that these more experienced physicists eventually came to realize that he was right. No, these older physicists died off leaving behind the younger generation that was less blind to the truth.

Einstein became a dinosaur too in his old age, doubting modern theories in quantum mechanics.

We all eventually become dinosaurs, as the leadership in thought falls upon the younger generation who continue to fight for truth and progress.

That's all correct if you can identify what's really true and what really constitutes progress. If you followed the truth of this forum starting two short years ago you would have already lost all of your money to MyBitcoin or Bitcoinica or GLBSE or Pirate@40 or on and on and on. If any other investment vehicle had this many problems so soon after introduction it would already be ancient history. Fanatical idealism is keeping Bitcoin alive.

Peter R

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People hang on tightly to our shared mythology--even very intelligent people. Letting go is frightening because it requires a reshaping of our interpretation of reality.

I'd like to present my Theory of Dinosaurism:

One becomes a dinosaur when their hard-wired brain no longer sees it as possible for the status quo to ever *really* change.

When Einstein published his ‘theory of relativity’ as a young man, it was met with doubt and criticism by his seniors. But it wasn’t that these more experienced physicists eventually came to realize that he was right. No, these older physicists died off leaving behind the younger generation that was less blind to the truth.

Einstein became a dinosaur too in his old age, doubting modern theories in quantum mechanics.

We all eventually become dinosaurs, as the leadership in thought falls upon the younger generation who continue to fight for truth and progress.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Peter R

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Quote from: Peter R on March 20, 2014, 11:59:18 AM

The quantity theory of money states that

   M V = P Q, (1)

where M = money supply, V = money velocity, P = price level, Q = real output (goods, service, etc). I think the vast majority of economists agree with this equation, although their opinion may differ on how it should be used.

It is common to associate a growing economy with growing real output, Q (i.e., more goods being produced, more services being used, etc.). If you re-arrange Eq. (1) to solve for real output, Q, you get

   Q = M V / P .

So real output, Q, can grow three different ways (or more properly, it has 3 degrees of freedom):

   1. Money supply, M, can increase (what you said).
   2. Money velocity, V, can increase (e.g., an increase in the rate that bitcoin-days are destroyed)
   3. Price level, P, can decrease (the feared deflationary spiral).

What I wrote above can be understood as fact. Now let's talk mythology. (Myths can be useful as they align peoples' views, permitting communication from a common frame of reference. However, it is important to question from time-to-time whether our shared myths are still useful).

Presently, we operate under a myth that "deflation is bad." This means that if we want to increase real output, Q, we must rule out Option #3:

   1. Money supply, M, can increase.
   2. Money velocity, V, can increase.
   ~~3. Price level, P, can decrease.~~ NOT ALLOWED DUE TO OUR SHARED MYTHS

According to our mythology, we must choose #1 or #2. So the Fed lowers interest rates to encourage spending (increase V) and buys assets to increase its balance sheet (increase M).

I would argue that focusing on #1 and #2 tend to increase output, but the increase is mostly garbage output, not real and useful output. Manipulating #1 and #2 cause us to exploit our natural resources at a faster rate but provides less real and useful output than if the economy was left to its own devices, also leaving less resources available for our children. But this is a subject for another longer post….

IrishFutbol

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Quote from: Beliathon on March 20, 2014, 11:58:44 AM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on March 20, 2014, 06:30:26 AM

People trust on gold as it is time tested. Those who have faith in BTC are the ones who understands the protocol and hence know it's value in long term. I wont tell u why as that would unnecessarily lead to sudden price rise. It is buy time Wink

Hahahaha quoted for the MF'in truth. People either understand this technology, or they don't.

The ones who do have been - and will continue to be - richly rewarded for however long it takes fiat to finally die.

Let's assume you're right, and that fiat dies to a technology currency. Who's to say BTC takes over?

shawshankinmate37927

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Bitcoin: The People's Bailout

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 11:39:33 AM

That's just a part of Econ101. It's one of many basic economic principles that very few people here seem to understand.

Yes, it's definitely taught in economics classes, but does it stand up to logic and reason or is it just propaganda? I believe Bitcoin will eventually force the ECON 101 textbooks to be rewritten with less propaganda and more facts. We'll have to wait and see how things shake out.

Peter R

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 11:39:33 AM

Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on March 20, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 10:40:33 AM

The amount of money in a nation's money supply is crucial to the health of its economy. If there is not enough money in circulation, the economy cannot grow.

...

That's just a part of Econ101. It's one of many basic economic principles that very few people here seem to understand.

This is not true, regardless of whether you're a Keynesian or an Austrian economist. The quantity theory of money states that

   M V = P Q, (1)

where M = money supply, V = money velocity, P = price level, Q = real output (goods, service, etc). I think the vast majority of economists agree with this equation, although their opinion may differ on how it should be used.

It is common to associate a growing economy with growing real output, Q (i.e., more goods being produced, more services being used, etc.). If you re-arrange Eq. (1) to solve for real output, Q, you get

   Q = M V / P .

So real output, Q, can grow three different ways (or more properly, it has 3 degrees of freedom):

   1. Money supply, M, can increase (what you said).
   2. Money velocity, V, can increase (e.g., an increase in the rate that bitcoin-days are destroyed)
   3. Price level, P, can decrease (the feared deflationary spiral).

Beliathon

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https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU

Quote from: BitCoinDream on March 20, 2014, 06:30:26 AM

People trust on gold as it is time tested. Those who have faith in BTC are the ones who understands the protocol and hence know it's value in long term. I wont tell u why as that would unnecessarily lead to sudden price rise. It is buy time Wink

Hahahaha quoted for the MF'in truth. People either understand this technology, or they don't.

The ones who do have been - and will continue to be - richly rewarded for however long it takes fiat to finally die.

IrishFutbol

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Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on March 20, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 10:40:33 AM

The amount of money in a nation's money supply is crucial to the health of its economy. If there is not enough money in circulation, the economy cannot grow.

This is what we often hear from the privileged few that are allowed to create money, then loan it out and charge interest on those loans. Of course if adding more money to the total money supply were such a good idea then allowing each of us to have our very own printing press to print out as much money as we need and just skip the loan part would be an even better idea. I'm sure we'd have the world's economy firing on all cylinders in no time.

There's a balance. Too much and it's worthless. Too little and money turns into a commodity rather than a medium of exchange.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on March 20, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 10:40:33 AM

The amount of money in a nation's money supply is crucial to the health of its economy. If there is not enough money in circulation, the economy cannot grow.

This is what we often hear from the privileged few that are allowed to create money, then loan it out and charge interest on those loans. Of course if adding more money to the total money supply were such a good idea then allowing each of us to have our very own printing press to print out as much money as we need and just skip the loan part would be an even better idea. I'm sure we'd have the world's economy firing on all cylinders in no time.

That's just a part of Econ101. It's one of many basic economic principles that very few people here seem to understand.

shawshankinmate37927

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Bitcoin: The People's Bailout

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on March 20, 2014, 10:40:33 AM

The amount of money in a nation's money supply is crucial to the health of its economy. If there is not enough money in circulation, the economy cannot grow.

This is what we often hear from the privileged few that are allowed to create money, then loan it out and charge interest on those loans. Of course if adding more money to the total money supply were such a good idea then allowing each of us to have our very own printing press to print out as much money as we need and just skip the loan part would be an even better idea. I'm sure we'd have the world's economy firing on all cylinders in no time.

S4VV4S

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Quote from: IrishFutbol on March 20, 2014, 10:52:51 AM

The issues with BTC equaling gold as of now:

1. Length of trust. Gold's been around for millennia. BTC hasn't. BTC needs to survive for another decade before it can be trusted.

2. Complexity. Gold is simple to understand. BTC isn't. Even the vast majority of people that are technologically savvy either have no clue what BTC is, or barely understand it.

3. Copycats. Right now there's plenty of altcoins out there, with groups swearing up and down that their coin is the best and will become the currency of the future. BTC is the strongest, but as long as there are multiple competitors, it will never be taken as seriously as gold.

4. Reason for holding it. People hold gold as a safe hedge. Most people hold BTC because they're speculating about the future value.

3. Gold has other competitors too, including Platinum.

IrishFutbol

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The issues with BTC equaling gold as of now:

1. Length of trust. Gold's been around for millennia. BTC hasn't. BTC needs to survive for another decade before it can be trusted.

2. Complexity. Gold is simple to understand. BTC isn't. Even the vast majority of people that are technologically savvy either have no clue what BTC is, or barely understand it.

3. Copycats. Right now there's plenty of altcoins out there, with groups swearing up and down that their coin is the best and will become the currency of the future. BTC is the strongest, but as long as there are multiple competitors, it will never be taken as seriously as gold.

4. Reason for holding it. People hold gold as a safe hedge. Most people hold BTC because they're speculating about the future value.

fengshu

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Quote from: franky1 on March 20, 2014, 09:58:46 AM

so if the dollar is stable for having just a 10% variation over 2 years of the many decades it has been around. then so is bitcoin for having a same 10% variation for the couple months of just 5 years being around

thank you very much for your good presentation.
during the last three month bitcoin's price volatility is low, but we see chinese policy December last year and MT.Gox caused price breakdown. All of this attributes to goverment regulation, at these situition, its price is not stable at all. it will happen again.

if the bitcoin market keeps the pace of recent two month, BTC will make a big step to be a stable currency.
another hand, lots people suggest there will not be this kind of stable, and they have reasons because the limited bitcoin supply, they(include me) think the price will rise steadily in the long term.

expectation of steady rise and stable in price is a contradiction?

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: fengshu on March 20, 2014, 04:14:03 AM

we konw that gold price is historycally stable, now we hope bitcoin's price can be more stable in the long for its widly accepted in busisness.

i think we have fath for gold because it is unique on this planet,different from any other metal.
is bitcoin unique forever as crypto tech develop ?

"Almost all the gold ever mined is stored in the form of bullion and jewelry."
is quick circulation good for bitcoin's price or value?

any thoughts? thanks.

Cypherdoc hasn't posted here yet? He'll smell the word gold and be here shortly.

How has the price of gold been historically stable. Just the opposite. Bitcoin doesn't have the ability to be stable yet and won't for a very long time.

Only idiots have faith in gold over time. You can lose as much money speculating on gold as you can on Bitcoin. Bitcoin is unique only as it's the first one and started the craze. I don't think it will be the last iteration of crypto coin or eventually even the most popular.

How a commodity is stored is immaterial to its value. Value isn't derived from storage method.
The amount of money in a nation's money supply is crucial to the health of its economy. If there is not enough money in circulation, the economy cannot grow. This basic premise should hold true for Bitcoin if Bitcoin is currency but you are comparing it to a commodity. So basically you're saying it's not money.

If you want to compare Bitcoin price to a commodity you should look up price charts for the now defunct pork bellies market. The charts look real similar.

S4VV4S

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Quote from: BitOnyx on March 20, 2014, 10:12:15 AM

Gold is not similar to bitcoin. Bitcoin is much more flexible. Payments with gold are much more difficult and require actual movement of metal .

Also, Bitcoin is instantly divisible. Gold is not.

Topic: on what condition can people have fath for bitcoin just like for gold? - page 2. (Read 2951 times)